Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code - CP/M

This is a discussion on Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code - CP/M ; "Guy Macon" wrote in message news:aZudnaw4vachR5rURVn_vwA@giganews.com... > > > > Charles Richmond wrote: > >>Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart >>of the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz. > > Now THAT would be a ...

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Thread: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

  1. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code



    "Guy Macon" wrote in message
    news:aZudnaw4vachR5rURVn_vwA@giganews.com...
    >
    >
    >
    > Charles Richmond wrote:
    >
    >>Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart
    >>of the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.

    >
    > Now THAT would be a cool thing to read! The obvious Google searches
    > ( Flowchart BASIC Kemeny Kurtz ) didn't find it; dos anyone know
    > where I can find a copy?


    While it's not the flowchart, you can get the annotated assembly language
    listing (for a GE-235 computer) for the first BASIC (1964)

    http://www.dtss.org/scans/BASIC/BASIC%20Compiler.pdf

    as well as an emulator for the computer and the Dartmouth Time Sharing
    System (DTSS) it ran on.

    http://www.dtss.org/

    The first BASIC manual can be found here:

    http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dartmouth/BASIC_Oct64.pdf

    It's interesting to note that most people think of BASIC as an interpretive
    language since that was the way BASIC was implemented on small
    computers in the '70s and '80s. The original BASIC, though, was a true
    compiler.

    Tom Lake


  2. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Well, not BASIC itself but...

    He did write a series of articles on Programming Tips, Techniques, etc. for
    the MITS newsletters. You can probably get some clues out of those.


    -J


    "Guy Macon" wrote in message
    news:79SdnRJxvNaNj5rU4p2dnAA@giganews.com...
    >
    >
    >
    > I am curious as to whether any written-by-Bill-Gates, original-
    > source, not-a-later-disassembly, source code for any BASIC on
    > any system has ever been published. I would very much like
    > to examine the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation
    > scheme, etc. that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC
    > interpreters.
    >
    > --
    > Guy Macon
    >
    >




  3. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    John Crane wrote
    > Well, not BASIC itself but...
    > He did write a series of articles on Programming Tips, Techniques, etc. *for
    > the MITS newsletters. *You can probably get some clues out of those.


    Are those MITS newsletters archived somewhere?

  4. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:26:09 GMT, no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net
    wrote:

    >Actually the story I'd heard was they wrote using cross platform
    >assemblers and compilers using systems Like GEtymenet or
    >similar modem connected remote mainframe systems.


    Ed Roberts had a DG1 that he rented out timeshare. He had to
    sue at least one client, a jeweler I believe, for not paying his bill.
    I copied that suit while searching the clerk's records at the
    court house in Albuquerque for the infamous basic lawsuit,

    Get this: it appears the original contract for basic signed by
    Gates, Allen and ol' Ed was part of the court's file, and when
    they went to microfilming everything, after they had it on film,
    they simply threw it away

    That piece of paper might've been worth a million bucks!

    I've seen reports Gates used an ASR-33 from his
    apartment (wanna see a photo of the front door?) to
    access a PDP-10 owned by the school district.

    Bill

  5. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:21:01 -0800, Glen Herrmannsfeldt
    wrote:

    >Charles Richmond wrote:
    >(snip)
    >
    >> Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart of
    >> the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.


    I read somewhere they used the PDP-10 basic manual.

    Bill

  6. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code


    "Greegor" wrote in message
    news:9bd8b3e0-6f88-4401-a2e4-cc677eb15f19@d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
    John Crane wrote
    > Well, not BASIC itself but...
    > He did write a series of articles on Programming Tips, Techniques, etc.
    > for
    > the MITS newsletters. You can probably get some clues out of those.


    Are those MITS newsletters archived somewhere?


    Years ago when I was researching this, I only found a few issues on the net.
    So I ordered the full set on CD from Dynacomp.

    http://www.dynacompsoftware.com/

    And BTW, these guys have been in business since the 70's. You can see their
    ads in old issues of Byte. They are one of the few survivors of that era.

    Nowdays, there may be a full set on the net somewhere.
    They were called "Computer Notes".


    -John



  7. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    John Crane expounded in
    news:dL6dnbJLesg0Q5TUnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@pghconnect.c om:

    >
    > "Greegor" wrote in message
    > news:9bd8b3e0-6f88-4401-a2e4-cc677eb15f19@d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com.
    > .. John Crane wrote
    >> Well, not BASIC itself but...
    >> He did write a series of articles on Programming Tips, Techniques,
    >> etc. for
    >> the MITS newsletters. You can probably get some clues out of those.

    >
    > Are those MITS newsletters archived somewhere?
    >
    >
    > Years ago when I was researching this, I only found a few issues on
    > the net. So I ordered the full set on CD from Dynacomp.
    >
    > http://www.dynacompsoftware.com/
    >
    > And BTW, these guys have been in business since the 70's. You can see
    > their ads in old issues of Byte. They are one of the few survivors of
    > that era.
    >
    > Nowdays, there may be a full set on the net somewhere.
    > They were called "Computer Notes".
    >
    >
    > -John


    A little googling seems to show the following resource:

    http://www.startupgallery.org/gallery/computernotes.php

    I didn't review it much, but it would appear that all of the articles are
    there.

    Warren.

  8. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code


    wrote in message
    news:6mjig4lsdkppu40c06to1cbbkr8lvph5gi@4ax.com...
    > On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:21:01 -0800, Glen Herrmannsfeldt
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Charles Richmond wrote:
    >>(snip)
    >>
    >>> Gates and Allen worked from a public domain flow chart of
    >>> the BASIC compiler produced by Kemeny and Kurtz.

    >
    > I read somewhere they used the PDP-10 basic manual.


    Yes, Altair BASIC was patterned off of DEC BASIC-Plus,
    not off of the Dartmouth original directly. It's a pity
    MS never put the MAT functions back in it when computer
    memory size grew.

    Tom Lake


  9. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    John Crane wrote:
    > "Greegor" wrote in message
    > news:9bd8b3e0-6f88-4401-a2e4-cc677eb15f19@d70g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
    > John Crane wrote
    >> Well, not BASIC itself but...
    >> He did write a series of articles on Programming Tips, Techniques, etc.
    >> for
    >> the MITS newsletters. You can probably get some clues out of those.

    >
    > Are those MITS newsletters archived somewhere?
    >
    >
    > Years ago when I was researching this, I only found a few issues on the net.
    > So I ordered the full set on CD from Dynacomp.
    >
    > http://www.dynacompsoftware.com/
    >
    > And BTW, these guys have been in business since the 70's. You can see their
    > ads in old issues of Byte. They are one of the few survivors of that era.
    >
    > Nowdays, there may be a full set on the net somewhere.
    > They were called "Computer Notes".
    >


    This publication is where Bill Gates wrote his diatribe about
    the hobby programmers being *thieves*...

    --
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

  10. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    "Charles Richmond" wrote in message
    news:geduae$9sk$1@registered.motzarella.org...
    > John Crane wrote:
    >> Nowdays, there may be a full set on the net somewhere.
    >> They were called "Computer Notes".

    >
    > This publication is where Bill Gates wrote his diatribe about
    > the hobby programmers being *thieves*...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists

    - Bill


  11. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:02:07 -0400, I waved a wand and this message
    magically appears in front of Bill Leary:

    > > This publication is where Bill Gates wrote his diatribe about
    > > the hobby programmers being *thieves*...

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists


    As he's made billions, I think he's got a damned cheek writing that.
    --
    http://www.munted.org.uk

    Fearsome grindings.


  12. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    wrote in message
    news:3piig490osrdq09app6o32fjr6hcpbnqq9@4ax.com...
    >Ed Roberts had a DG1 that he rented out timeshare...


    >Get this: it appears the original contract for basic signed by Gates, Allen
    >and ol' Ed was part of the court's file, and when they went to microfilming
    >everything, after they had it on film, they simply threw it away...


    >I've seen reports Gates used an ASR-33 from his apartment (wanna see a
    >photo of the front door?) to access a PDP-10 owned by the school district.


    Hey Bill,

    If you get a chance to see the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" do so.

    In the movie, Gates gets the contract for Altair BASIC and meets Ed Roberts
    who is a little sceptical it seems because Gates is just a kid. Gates
    holes-up in a fleabag motel (apartment?)somewhere down-there and writes
    Altair BASIC.

    I don't recall if the movie showed Steve Allen much at that point.

    The VHS rip is available as a torrent. Just google "Pirates of SIlicon
    Valley" download

    You'll find it.

    Bill




  13. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    "Tom Lake" wrote in message
    news:gea24h$vcl$1@news.albasani.net...
    >It's interesting to note that most people think of BASIC as an interpretive
    >language since that was the way BASIC was implemented on small computers in
    >the '70s and '80s. The original BASIC, though, was a true compiler.


    Hi Tom,

    As long time and still active Software Developers, my Business Associates
    and I have been involved with Microsoft BASIC as well as other BASIC
    compilers as application developers for many many years. I know what you
    mean about "most people" but consider that in 1988 with a history of other
    BASIC compilers including DR CBASIC as an Engineering Technologist I wrote a
    CAD script parametric drawing and manufacturing details generator for
    hospital operating room air distribution systems in compiled QuickBASIC 2.
    These scripts were generated on the PC running MS-DOS 3.X and uploaded to
    the Prime/Computer Vision Mini where they ran multiple jobs and plotted
    drawings in the PRIMOS/MEDUSA environment.

    By 1989 I was working with Mixed language programs combining compiled
    QuickBASIC 4.5 and Microsoft C 5.1 and MASM 5.1. I favoured C and MASM and
    that has been the mainstay of my programming career since I transitioned
    from enngineering tyo programming after my QuickBASIC 2 fling but compiled
    Microsoft BASIC has been a close second.

    Not so with the Majority of my many associates who are compiled BASIC gurus
    and have done such things as work for Microsoft and write books and so forth
    over the years. Applications written in Compiled Microsoft BASIC and also on
    the RUNTIME side MSACCESS have been the main revenue stream for many of us
    despite the fact that I am the C/C++ guy and I am brought in for the
    low-level and computer-sciency stuff.

    Most people I know do not think of BASIC as an interpreted language. Well,
    you understand what I mean.

    After some 30 years together, we reconverged as a large consulting company
    starting in 2001 and we are also a Mircrosoft Gold Partner. We have
    transitioned through the Various Visual Basics and for quite some time VB6
    was our mainstay although we were early accepters of VB.NET and also C# and
    so forth.

    My current time is spent between VB.NET and ASP.NET using VB.NET and moving
    forward in compiled BASIC as well as in C and C++ and so forth.

    Again I have the background of the interpreted BASICs on the Apple II and
    C64 as well as other computers, and mainframes and minis as well, and so do
    many of my associates, but as I say serious BASIC developers which comprise
    most of the BASIC programmers that I have cared to know for the past 30
    years or so DO NOT think of BASIC as an primarily interpreted language but
    rather a primarily compiled language that carries an "interpreter"
    "disguised" as a runtime link library or an API.

    Well you get my point about "most people". Depends on the people I guess and
    if you are a hobbyist or a developer. It's a great big world out there. Most
    computer users these days aren't even aware that BASIC exists. Most that
    care too are more likely to use a compiler and VB.NET I think.

    Check-ot MONO on Linux. We've done VB.NET running under Mono too. That's
    something that most people that I know are pretty much aware of as well,
    athough I favour using Trolltech Qt for my cross-platform stuff and C++ for
    one particular client.

    I might have agreed with you in the 1980's but like me the old fart
    interpreted BASIC programmers are in the minority and lurk in forums like
    this one.

    That's my 2 cents worth.

    Bill



  14. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:33:39 -0400, I waved a wand and this message
    magically appears in front of Tom Lake:

    > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists

    > >
    > > As he's made billions, I think he's got a damned cheek writing
    > > that.

    >
    > He wrote that BEFORE his billions. He only had millions back then.
    > 8^)


    Yeah, he was a trust-fund baby!
    --
    http://www.munted.org.uk

    Fearsome grindings.


  15. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code



    "Alex Buell" wrote in message
    news:20081031085253.46c966cc@lithium.local.net...
    > On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:02:07 -0400, I waved a wand and this message
    > magically appears in front of Bill Leary:
    >
    >> > This publication is where Bill Gates wrote his diatribe about
    >> > the hobby programmers being *thieves*...

    >>
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists

    >
    > As he's made billions, I think he's got a damned cheek writing that.


    He wrote that BEFORE his billions. He only had millions back then. 8^)

    Tom Lake



  16. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    "Alex Buell" wrote in message
    news:20081031085253.46c966cc@lithium.local.net...
    > As he's made billions, I think he's got a damned cheek writing that.


    He wrote it long before he had billions, and even if that weren't the case,
    stealing from someone with billions vs. stealing from someone with very little
    is still stealing -- it shouldn't be done, even if in one case it hurts the
    guy less than another.

    In general I'm not about to defend Bill Gates or his business practices --
    some are reprehensible -- but in this particular case his letter and its point
    is entirely reasonable.



  17. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:12:37 -0700, Joel Koltner wrote:

    > "Alex Buell" wrote in message
    > news:20081031085253.46c966cc@lithium.local.net...
    >> As he's made billions, I think he's got a damned cheek writing that.

    >
    > He wrote it long before he had billions, and even if that weren't the
    > case, stealing from someone with billions vs. stealing from someone with
    > very little is still stealing -- it shouldn't be done, even if in one
    > case it hurts the guy less than another.


    That's not the point, he *made* billions *despite* the ongoing
    "stealing". Maybe even *because* of all the unauthorized copies. That's
    one reason for Microsoft's dominant market position in operating systems
    and office software. And copying something virtual is IMHO something
    different than taking something physical away from someone.

    Ciao,
    Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

  18. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code


    "Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch" wrote in message
    news:6n145nFj5ggvU5@mid.uni-berlin.de...
    >And copying something virtual is IMHO something different than taking
    >something physical away from someone.


    On this planet apparently stealing is stealing whether it's intellectual
    property or real property.

    http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/news/2008/..._ip_conf_e.htm

    http://www.uspto.gov/main/profiles/international.htm

    Evidently there are many professions including the legal profession where a
    "virtual" service is the deliverable and practicing without a licence is a
    criminal offence.

    If I undertand you correctly you are providing a legal opinion, albeit a
    humble one, in a public forum.

    Would I be correct in making that assumption?

    I am a professional software developer and my billable time and the product
    that I produce are for sale and not for free unless I say they are for free.
    The limited time I have in this life is my property whether I lay bricks
    with it, write books or software, or practice law or medicine. Are you
    suggesting that by not paying for an authorized piece of someone's life by
    duplicating an electronic copy instead is different than walking into
    someone's home or place of business and taking product or possessions that
    have been produced or purchased with the proceeds of someone's time.

    Is that really your opinion that you are sharing with the rest of us? A
    legal opinion?

    http://www.jailhouselaw.org/

    I think your CC65 source code is infinitely better than this latest idea of
    yours. I am flabbergasted

    Bill





  19. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Joel Koltner wrote:
    > "Alex Buell" wrote in message
    > news:20081031085253.46c966cc@lithium.local.net...
    >> As he's made billions, I think he's got a damned cheek writing that.

    >
    > He wrote it long before he had billions, and even if that weren't the case,
    > stealing from someone with billions vs. stealing from someone with very little
    > is still stealing -- it shouldn't be done, even if in one case it hurts the
    > guy less than another.
    >
    > In general I'm not about to defend Bill Gates or his business practices --
    > some are reprehensible -- but in this particular case his letter and its point
    > is entirely reasonable.
    >


    Prior to the "unbundling" court decision against IBM, software
    was bundled with the system that used it. Software was *not*
    considered a product all on its own. Gates should have considered
    this and avoided the "high handed" tone of his flaming letter.
    Software *was* once free, and it is *not* unusual for the
    computer community to have some residual feeling about this.

    As someone else pointed out, Mi$uck BASIC probably *gained*
    more than it lost because of this "piracy".



    --
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

  20. Re: Written-by-Bill-Gates BASIC Source Code

    Digital information is quite different from physical objects because
    it's incredibly easy to duplicate. But, damn, that's the point of
    digital information! If the person/company who created it enjoys the
    advantages of being able to duplicate, for virtually nothing (!),
    digital information that had only been created in a single copy
    beforehands then why is anyone so surprised that other persons/
    companies also want to make duplicates? Along with the incredibly easy
    way of distributing such copies over the Internet, this is not an
    extension of the notion of "stealing", rather an indication that the
    notion of "property" needs to be rethought.

    When the replicators from Star Trek are developed in real life, we
    will have the same problem again: then physical objects will also be
    duplicated, for virtually nothing. Following the usual (stupid)
    example seen in the anti-piracy adverts of movie DVD's, you'll be able
    to "steal" any car without taking away the original from its previous
    "owner" or by causing "financial" damage to the people who created and/
    or manufactured it. (Hopefully, the words enclosed into quotation
    marks won't be known by then.)

    There exists free software for which you don't pay, only if you have
    problems with it and ask for help from its official user support. As
    for Micro$oft, they apply heavier copy protection to "their" (read:
    published by them but developed by companies they acquired) games then
    their very expensive productivity software. They know _exactly_ what
    they're doing and most people and companies fall for it.

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