Altair BASIC Source Code - CP/M

This is a discussion on Altair BASIC Source Code - CP/M ; Udo Munk wrote: >The written-by-Bill-himself stuff is not lost, but it is not >available for the public, see links like this: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/ I believe that the source code to the original written-by-bill-gates Altair BASIC *was* lost by Bill ...

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  1. Altair BASIC Source Code




    Udo Munk wrote:

    >The written-by-Bill-himself stuff is not lost, but it is not
    >available for the public, see links like this:
    >
    >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/


    I believe that the source code to the original written-by-bill-gates
    Altair BASIC *was* lost by Bill Gates As it says on this webpage:
    [ http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm ]

    "This source is "Version 1.1", so it's not the real first version,
    nor is the first commercial release because the word "Microsoft"
    (or Micro-Soft as it was back then) is notably absent."

    ....and as it says here:
    [ http://www.ddj.com/architect/184404733 ]

    "Actually, it's not quite the original, if you go by the version
    number. ... What's there is 114 pages of code, constituting the
    4K and 8K Basic source.

    Unless I am mistaken, Altair 8K BASIC did not exist at the time
    the first Altair 4K BASIC was released, so this is a later version.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    References / also see:

    Quest for the Holy Source: Ian's trip to Harvard
    [ http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm ]

    Stalking Bill Gates
    [ http://gizmonaut.net/soapflakes/EXE-199711.html

    Back to the Future: Bill's Lost Code
    [ http://www.ddj.com/architect/184404733 ]

    Raiders of the Lost Altair BASIC Source Code
    [ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/ ]

    Altair BASIC 3.2 (4K) - Annotated Disassembly
    [ http://web.archive.org/web/200112112...4k/index2.html ]

    Microsoft's timeline from 1975 to 1990
    [ http://www.thocp.net/companies/micro...ft_company.htm ]

    AN OPEN LETTER TO HOBBYISTS By William Henry Gates III, February 3, 1976
    [ http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html ]


    I have a question: what is the earliest written-by-Bill-Gates
    original-source-not-a-later-disassembly BASIC that *is* available?








    --
    Guy Macon Guy Macon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon



  2. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:39:14 +0000, Guy Macon wrote:

    > Udo Munk wrote:
    >
    >>The written-by-Bill-himself stuff is not lost, but it is not
    >>available for the public, see links like this:
    >>
    >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/

    >
    > I believe that the source code to the original written-by-bill-gates
    > Altair BASIC *was* lost by Bill Gates As it says on this webpage:
    > [ http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm ]


    Maybe he lost it, at least the source never was released so far.

    > "This source is "Version 1.1", so it's not the real first version,
    > nor is the first commercial release because the word "Microsoft"
    > (or Micro-Soft as it was back then) is notably absent."


    They sold it to MITS, also later releases won't include Microsoft, might
    be an agreement issue. This 1.1 release might still include Gates
    esteregg, don't know, seems in 3.2 it was removed.

    > ...and as it says here:
    > [ http://www.ddj.com/architect/184404733 ]
    >
    > "Actually, it's not quite the original, if you go by the version
    > number. ... What's there is 114 pages of code, constituting the 4K and
    > 8K Basic source.


    This is an original version, just not the very first release tho.

    > Unless I am mistaken, Altair 8K BASIC did not exist at the time the
    > first Altair 4K BASIC was released, so this is a later version.


    Yep.

    > -------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > References / also see:
    >
    > Quest for the Holy Source: Ian's trip to Harvard [
    > http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/altair/...rsions/ian.htm ]
    >
    > Stalking Bill Gates
    > [ http://gizmonaut.net/soapflakes/EXE-199711.html
    >
    > Back to the Future: Bill's Lost Code
    > [ http://www.ddj.com/architect/184404733 ]
    >
    > Raiders of the Lost Altair BASIC Source Code [
    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/ ]
    >
    > Altair BASIC 3.2 (4K) - Annotated Disassembly [
    > http://web.archive.org/web/200112112...4k/index2.html
    > ]
    >
    > Microsoft's timeline from 1975 to 1990 [
    > http://www.thocp.net/companies/micro...ft_company.htm ]
    >
    > AN OPEN LETTER TO HOBBYISTS By William Henry Gates III, February 3, 1976
    > [ http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html ]


    All interesting readings.

    > I have a question: what is the earliest written-by-Bill-Gates
    > original-source-not-a-later-disassembly BASIC that *is* available?


    None for the 8080 so far, if you find one I would like to know too.

    Microsoft BASIC for the 6502 was sold as a printed listing, I used it as
    reference for my early Commodore machine, the first versions came with a
    very minimalistic manual.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  3. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code




    Udo Munk wrote:
    >
    >Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> I have a question: what is the earliest written-by-Bill-Gates
    >> original-source-not-a-later-disassembly BASIC that *is* available?

    >
    >None for the 8080 so far,


    I would be happy to find one for any system. I am curious as to
    the coding style, commenting philosophy, indentation scheme, etc.
    that Bill Gates used when he was writing BASIC interpreters.

    >if you find one I would like to know too.


    I would, of course. post the info here and email it to several
    of the websites that archive that sort of thing.



    --
    Guy Macon



  4. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:40:18 +1000, Ed wrote:

    > Udo Munk wrote:
    >> ...
    >> Microsoft BASIC for the 6502 was sold as a printed listing, I used it as
    >> reference for my early Commodore machine, the first versions came with a
    >> very minimalistic manual.

    >
    > According to the book "The Rise and Fall of Commodore", Gates
    > was never interested in the 6502 version of MS BASIC. IIRC it
    > was ported to the 6502 by an employee in his spare time. Not
    > wishing to support it, Gates just sold it outright. This may
    > explain why the 6502 BASIC listings were allowed to escape.


    I had a look through the old books and stuff I kept. I found my "The First
    Bock of KIM", the MOS Programmers and Hardware manuals published by
    Commodore, but that's all what I kept from the 6502 stuff I had. I gave
    all of the stuff away when I was done with the 6502 a long time ago,
    sorry. Also I don't know anymore who published the 6502 Microsoft BASIC
    listing, might have had Copyrights printed all over it. It was used (and
    helpful) as reference listing for those who used a Microsoft BASIC with
    their 6502 machines way back then.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  5. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Udo Munk wrote:
    > ...
    > Microsoft BASIC for the 6502 was sold as a printed listing, I used it as
    > reference for my early Commodore machine, the first versions came with a
    > very minimalistic manual.


    According to the book "The Rise and Fall of Commodore", Gates
    was never interested in the 6502 version of MS BASIC. IIRC it
    was ported to the 6502 by an employee in his spare time. Not
    wishing to support it, Gates just sold it outright. This may
    explain why the 6502 BASIC listings were allowed to escape.




  6. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Guy Macon wrote:

    > I have a question: what is the earliest written-by-Bill-Gates
    > original-source-not-a-later-disassembly BASIC that *is* available?


    1) Guy Macon is a well-known spammer. Let's hope he will go back to
    Hell!

    2) Answer (for others): None. Bill Gates never wrote Altair BASIC.
    According to the listing (whose photocopy was published in a
    Microsoft Press Book), Paul Allen wrote all the BASIC interpreter
    while Bill Gates was a student at Harvard (Paul Allen was a
    professional programmer, him). After MITS swallowed the hook,
    they both went to Albuquerque, New Mexico, where Bill Gates
    wrote the I/O subroutines. A good third of the program was the
    Floating-Point math package, written by Monte Davidoff.

    Again, all this is written, black on white, on the listing.

    (You will also notice that, in MITS "Computer Connections"
    Bill Gates always talk about the I/O subroutines, never about
    the details of the BASIC interpreter. It is Paul Allen who explains
    what is or not available.)

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France


  7. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    "Mr Emmanuel Roche, France" wrote:
    > Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> I have a question: what is the earliest written-by-Bill-Gates
    >> original-source-not-a-later-disassembly BASIC that *is* available?

    >
    > 1) Guy Macon is a well-known spammer. Let's hope he will go back to
    > Hell!


    Guy Macon is a well known programmer, who publishes useful comments
    on various newsgroups.

    --
    [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    [page]:
    Try the download section.

  8. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    CBFalconer wrote:

    > Guy Macon is a well known programmer, who publishes useful comments
    > on various newsgroups.


    Him, a programmer???

    Following your comment, I went to his Web site, and looked all the
    pages:
    I did not see one single example of code...

    He must be so proud of his achievements that he never show them!

    (If you want to see what a real programmer writes about his programs
    do a Google search for "BAS by Emmanuel ROCHE", and see how
    I document my programs.)

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France


  9. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Mr Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
    > CBFalconer wrote:
    >
    >> Guy Macon is a well known programmer, who publishes useful comments
    >> on various newsgroups.

    >
    > Him, a programmer???
    >
    > Following your comment, I went to his Web site, and looked all the
    > pages:
    > I did not see one single example of code...
    >
    > He must be so proud of his achievements that he never show them!
    >
    > (If you want to see what a real programmer writes about his programs
    > do a Google search for "BAS by Emmanuel ROCHE", and see how
    > I document my programs.)


    Do you work at being rude or does it just come naturally?

  10. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Bill H wrote:

    > I think Steven picked the wrong word.
    >
    > I don't think you were being rude, you were being sarcastic, but it
    > does read as being rude.


    Perhaps I overreacted, and for that I apologize. Whatever the correct term
    is, that posting just rubbed me the wrong way. Grumble...

    > No insult intended, but I don't know if it is a cultural thing,
    > character flaw, or a something you do on purpose, but a lot of what
    > you write does read rude, at least on this side of the Atlantic.
    >
    > Maybe it is a clash of cultures that brings that out? Hidden
    > assumptions we all read in others words that are not really there,
    > just something that our culture has "taught" us to see.
    >
    > Pretty deep thought there, guess that is what I get posting messages
    > after a large dinner, the wisdom that comes with a full belly. Feel
    > like I am gonna burst.
    >
    > Bill H


  11. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Hello, Steven!

    > Perhaps I overreacted, and for that I apologize. *Whatever the correct term
    > is, that posting just rubbed me the wrong way. *Grumble...


    Ok. It is finished.

    Personally, I think that you all forget that I am writing in a foreign
    language that I don't speak fluently. As I already wrote, for me
    English is a written language. I never lived in an English-speaking
    country, and speak (at best) one minute per year in English.

    That's why I always react to facts, since I don't master the
    subtleties of the English language. (And, in addition, I learned
    English "English", and this is a world-wide Newsgroup using American
    English.)

    So, let us go back to CP/M. Guy Macon knows nothing about CP/M, and
    has never written a program running under CP/M. (Altair BASIC was
    running on the hardware of the MITS 8800, not under CP/M, or at least
    not until Version 4.51, while he talks about "the first version".
    Conclusion: his message is off topic. He did not made his homework
    before writing. Me, I am French, and never have seen a MITS 8800. So,
    how comes I know so much about it? Answer: I did LOTS of searches on
    the Internet, thanks to Google, and found the MITS "Computer
    Connection" newsletters. I printed all the pages dealing with Altair
    BASIC, or written by Paul Allen, Bill Gates, or Monte Davidoff, and
    this is how I know what happened in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1975.
    Unless, of course, you think that this is a conspiracy... For those
    really interested in this historical subject, I am fascinated by the
    second public letter by Bill Gates, that I find much more interesting
    that the first, available everywhere.)

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France


  12. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Correction: MITS published a "Computer Notes" newsletter.

    "Computer Connections" is the name of the impossible to find memoir of
    Gary Kildall.

    (I have been trying to find it, recently, without any success.)

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France


  13. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    > So, let us go back to CP/M. Guy Macon knows nothing about CP/M, and
    > has never written a program running under CP/M. (Altair BASIC was


    so, only people who wrote stuff for cp/m are allowed to post in this newsgroup?
    interesting...



  14. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Thierry Schembri wrote:
    >> So, let us go back to CP/M. Guy Macon knows nothing about CP/M, and
    >> has never written a program running under CP/M. (Altair BASIC was


    > so, only people who wrote stuff for cp/m are allowed to post in this
    > newsgroup? interesting...


    For Z80 or 8080 code that doesn't have to do with I/O it should
    be the same for any OS.

    -- glen


  15. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Mr Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:

    > Curiously, this replicates exactly what happened 2,000 years ago,
    > after Athens won against Sparta: Athens was the winner,


    Make that "Sparta".

    > yet declined and declined until it became a colony of Roma...


    You left out the Makedonian Alexander the Great, so this is a bit too
    simplistic...

    hauke



    --
    Eine Linux User Group, um soziale Blockaden gegenüber Frauen
    abzubauen? Da wäre ja ein Schwulengesangsverein noch produktiver.

    {David Kastrup @ d.t.r}

  16. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code




    Mr Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:

    >1) Guy Macon is a well-known spammer. Let's hope he will go back to
    >Hell!


    Liar. A simple google search will show that I am not.

    For the record:

    What I am is someone who, once long ago, DARED to disagree
    with Emmanuel Roche.

    What happened was this:

    First, Emmanuel Roche claimed to be in possesion of various
    historical files relating to the early history of computing.

    I was concerned that these files might be lost if something
    happened to Emmanuel Roche, and gently suggested that he
    allow the files to reside on multiple public webservers
    owned by various folks who archive those sort of things.

    He said that this was impossible because he had no website
    and no way to get the files to the owners of any other
    website.

    I offered to pay all expenses for him to dump them to
    a CD-R and mail them to a website owner of his choice.

    He said he has no CD-R burner.

    I offered to buy him one.

    He said his system does not support burning CD-Rs.

    I offered to send him a complete computer system with a
    CD-R burner, pay for the blanks, and pay for all postage.
    That way, even if he only has a CP/M system (his use of
    a Mozilla-based browser to post here through Google
    Groups leads me to believe that he has some sort of PC),
    he can move the files through a serial cable.

    Having run out of bogus excuses, he started insulting
    me., so I stopped responding.

    I am still concerned that those files (if they actually
    exist) will die with Emmanuel Roche, and I am still willing
    to cover all his expenses if he ever decides to allow them
    to be archived on multiple web servers.

    Emmanuel Roche is, of course, free to do as he chooses,
    and if he had simply said that he refuses to share those
    files or that they don't actually exist, that would have
    been the end of the discussion. His claims that it is
    impossible to get a file from his computer to a computer
    on the Internet led me to attempt to solve that alleged
    problem.

    So here we are, many months later, and Emmanuel Roche is
    still flaming me for trying to help him. And I remain
    converned about the possible loss of some important
    documents from the dawn of personal computing.

    Please note that none of this in any way diminishes the
    many good things that he has done and the many files that
    he *has* been willing to share.


    --
    Guy Macon



  17. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code




    CBFalconer wrote:

    >Guy Macon is a well known programmer,


    Engineer, and leader of a group of programmers, actually.

    >who publishes useful comments on various newsgroups.


    Thanks, mom!

    --
    Guy Macon



  18. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code




    Mr Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:

    >Guy Macon knows nothing about CP/M, and has never written
    >a program running under CP/M.


    Evidence, please.

    --
    Guy Macon



  19. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code




    glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    >
    >Thierry Schembri wrote:
    >
    >>Emmanuel Roche wrote:
    >>
    >>> So, let us go back to CP/M. Guy Macon knows nothing about CP/M, and
    >>> has never written a program running under CP/M.

    >
    >> so, only people who wrote stuff for cp/m are allowed to post in this
    >> newsgroup? interesting...

    >
    >For Z80 or 8080 code that doesn't have to do with I/O it should
    >be the same for any OS.


    For the record, I have written various 8080 machine language
    programs to do production testing on products that I have
    designed. At the time I was using a Heath/Zenith Z-100
    (S100 dual-processor system with an 8085 and an 8088 that
    ran CP/M, CP/M-86, and a non-standard version of MS-DOS)
    with custom S100 boards that I designed. I still have a
    Commodore 128 that I often run in CP/M mode.

    So the claim that "Guy Macon knows nothing about CP/M, and
    has never written a program running under CP/M", like so
    many things written by Emmanuel Roche, is a lie.

    --
    Guy Macon



  20. Re: Altair BASIC Source Code

    Let's face it.

    Everyone here is a computer nerd. Including me.

    I know enough about psychology to understand that nerds like to wield power
    to compensate for perceived deficiencies in their lives. Unix gurus,
    adventure games, whatever...

    It's highly likely that a person may want to "control" information in his
    posession as that would bring him a form of power. Said person may not even
    be consciously aware that he is doing this as the drive lies in the
    subconscious. He does not think. He simply acts. And in extreme cases, a
    person may bend the truth to make reality match their perception. Again,
    without thinking about it.

    -J




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