IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source - CP/M

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  1. IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    This BASIC versions for the IMSAI were available with sources, very early
    form of Open Source. Much to my surprise I cannot find the original source
    files anywhere on the Internet. I was able to find sources for the 4K
    version, which someone translated to Z80 mnemonics and modified the tty
    I/O for some other system. I would like the original source as it was
    available from IMSAI, unmodified. For the 8K version I was able to find a
    PDF with the manual and source listing. This could be typed in, but
    someone probably has this files?

    Thanks,
    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  2. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    "Udo Munk" wrote:

    > This BASIC versions for the IMSAI were available with sources, very early
    > form of Open Source. Much to my surprise I cannot find the original source
    > files anywhere on the Internet. I was able to find sources for the 4K
    > version, which someone translated to Z80 mnemonics and modified the tty
    > I/O for some other system. I would like the original source as it was
    > available from IMSAI, unmodified. For the 8K version I was able to find a
    > PDF with the manual and source listing. This could be typed in, but
    > someone probably has this files?


    "Much to my surprise" there are very, very few Web sites catering to the
    IMSAI. It seems that only the MITS Altair existed. (About 17,000 IMSAIs were
    built.)

    I converted the Z-80 IMSAI 4K BASIC to 8080 mnemonics.

    I retyped the IMSAI 8K BASIC listing.

    I then sent both to Rich Cini, since he is the only one in the comp.os.cpm
    Newsgroup to have a Web page dealing with the IMSAI. (Remember March 2008?)

    As far as I remember, he told me that one was running on his system, but not
    the other.

    Rich, could you tell us the details?

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France




  3. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:53:56 +0200, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:

    > "Udo Munk" wrote:
    >
    >> This BASIC versions for the IMSAI were available with sources, very early
    >> form of Open Source. Much to my surprise I cannot find the original source
    >> files anywhere on the Internet. I was able to find sources for the 4K
    >> version, which someone translated to Z80 mnemonics and modified the tty
    >> I/O for some other system. I would like the original source as it was
    >> available from IMSAI, unmodified. For the 8K version I was able to find a
    >> PDF with the manual and source listing. This could be typed in, but
    >> someone probably has this files?

    >
    > "Much to my surprise" there are very, very few Web sites catering to the
    > IMSAI. It seems that only the MITS Altair existed. (About 17,000 IMSAIs were
    > built.)


    When I google for "imsai 8080" this search engine finds ~21100 articles,
    which is more than machines were build.

    > I converted the Z-80 IMSAI 4K BASIC to 8080 mnemonics.


    I have no idea what you converted, but a Z80 IMSAI 4K BASIC never existed.
    Same as the 8K version it was written in 8080 of course, the Z80 didn't
    exist in December 1975.

    > I retyped the IMSAI 8K BASIC listing.


    Hopefully you retyped the source, because the listing can be reproduced
    with an assembler from the source.

    > I then sent both to Rich Cini, since he is the only one in the
    > comp.os.cpm Newsgroup to have a Web page dealing with the IMSAI.
    > (Remember March 2008?)


    What I remember is one thing, but at least I am able to operate 21th
    century computer equipment. And that equipment tells me that at least two
    other active members of this newsgroup provide a lot of IMSAI material on
    their web sites, enough to allow me to build a hopefully good emulation of
    that machine.

    > As far as I remember, he told me that one was running on his system, but
    > not the other.


    If you found the same modified Z80 source for the 4K version than I, then
    of course it won't run anymore on an original IMSAI. I modified it back,
    but still this is not the original source I'm looking for.

    > Rich, could you tell us the details?
    >
    > Yours Sincerely,
    > Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France


    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  4. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On 10/8/08 12:17 PM, in article pan.2008.10.08.16.17.55.107971@unix4fun.org,
    "Udo Munk" wrote:

    > What I remember is one thing, but at least I am able to operate 21th
    > century computer equipment. And that equipment tells me that at least two
    > other active members of this newsgroup provide a lot of IMSAI material on
    > their web sites, enough to allow me to build a hopefully good emulation of
    > that machine.
    >
    >
    > Udo Munk



    By now I'm sure you've looked at the Altair32 Eumlator project I run
    (www.altair32.com). Although it's an Altair emulation, there is a
    compilation switch for IMSAI mode. Aside from the programmed data LEDs,
    there's not much difference between the two machines from an emulation
    perspective.

    Rich

    --
    Rich Cini
    http://www.altair32.com
    http://www.classiccmp.org/cini


  5. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:25:07 -0400, Richard A. Cini wrote:

    > On 10/8/08 12:17 PM, in article pan.2008.10.08.16.17.55.107971@unix4fun.org,
    > "Udo Munk" wrote:
    >
    >> What I remember is one thing, but at least I am able to operate 21th
    >> century computer equipment. And that equipment tells me that at least two
    >> other active members of this newsgroup provide a lot of IMSAI material on
    >> their web sites, enough to allow me to build a hopefully good emulation of
    >> that machine.
    >>
    >>
    >> Udo Munk

    >
    >
    > By now I'm sure you've looked at the Altair32 Eumlator project I run
    > (www.altair32.com). Although it's an Altair emulation, there is a
    > compilation switch for IMSAI mode. Aside from the programmed data LEDs,
    > there's not much difference between the two machines from an emulation
    > perspective.
    >
    > Rich


    Yes I had a look at the machine and played with it. I'm working on
    emulation of both machines in parallel, so I noticed a few more
    differences than just the programmed data lights. Also the most commonly
    used dual port SIO boards are different. Then the FDC controllers also are
    different. This is why I would like to get original software as it was
    distributed from MITS and IMSAI, to be able to verify that the emulations
    behave exactly like the originals. What others later do with this, like
    plug the IMSAI SIO into an Altair or modify the software for their needs
    is up to everyone self.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  6. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Oct 11, 1:21*pm, Udo Munk wrote:
    > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:25:07 -0400, Richard A. Cini wrote:
    > > On10/8/08 12:17 PM, in article pan.2008.10.08.16.17.55.107...@unix4fun.org,
    > > "Udo Munk" wrote:

    >
    > >> What I remember is one thing, but at least I am able to operate 21th
    > >> century computer equipment. And that equipment tells me that at least two
    > >> other active members of this newsgroup provide a lot of IMSAI materialon
    > >> their web sites, enough to allow me to build a hopefully good emulation of
    > >> that machine.

    >
    > >> Udo Munk

    >
    > > By now I'm sure you've looked at the Altair32 Eumlator project I run
    > > (www.altair32.com). Although it's an Altair emulation, there is a
    > > compilation switch for IMSAI mode. Aside from the programmed data LEDs,
    > > there's not much difference between the two machines from an emulation
    > > perspective.

    >
    > > Rich

    >
    > Yes I had a look at the machine and played with it. I'm working on
    > emulation of both machines in parallel, so I noticed a few more
    > differences than just the programmed data lights. Also the most commonly
    > used dual port SIO boards are different. Then the FDC controllers also are
    > different. This is why I would like to get original software as it was
    > distributed from MITS and IMSAI, to be able to verify that the emulations
    > behave exactly like the originals. What others later do with this, like
    > plug the IMSAI SIO into an Altair or modify the software for their needs
    > is up to everyone self.
    >
    > Udo Munk
    > --
    > The real fun is building it and then using it...


    the SIMH/AltairZ80 simulator includes an IMSAI disk controller and
    runs the IMSAI monitor and IMDOS 2.05 unmodified. You can download
    the source and disk image from Peter Schorn's website and use that as
    a reference.

    -Howard

  7. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:27:17 -0700, Howard Harte wrote:

    > On Oct 11, 1:21*pm, Udo Munk wrote:

    ....
    ....
    >> Yes I had a look at the machine and played with it. I'm working on
    >> emulation of both machines in parallel, so I noticed a few more
    >> differences than just the programmed data lights. Also the most commonly
    >> used dual port SIO boards are different. Then the FDC controllers also are
    >> different. This is why I would like to get original software as it was
    >> distributed from MITS and IMSAI, to be able to verify that the emulations
    >> behave exactly like the originals. What others later do with this, like
    >> plug the IMSAI SIO into an Altair or modify the software for their needs
    >> is up to everyone self.
    >>
    >> Udo Munk
    >> --
    >> The real fun is building it and then using it...

    >
    > the SIMH/AltairZ80 simulator includes an IMSAI disk controller and
    > runs the IMSAI monitor and IMDOS 2.05 unmodified. You can download
    > the source and disk image from Peter Schorn's website and use that as
    > a reference.
    >
    > -Howard


    Yes, I have seen that already Howard, thanks. I'll use it as a reference
    because I have no original machine to mess with.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  8. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On 10/12/08 2:54 PM, in article pan.2008.10.12.18.54.13.960584@unix4fun.org,
    "Udo Munk" wrote:

    > Yes, I have seen that already Howard, thanks. I'll use it as a reference
    > because I have no original machine to mess with.



    It's funny how many times I've heard and said that :-) The original author
    of the predecessor to the Altair32 wrote the base code from manuals only
    while he worked at Microsoft. I didn't get my first S100 machine (an 8800b)
    until a few years after I had been working on the Altair32. I mostly relied
    on others to independently test (and sometimes fix) parts that I had
    written.

    The key thing for me was finding a test program from the CPMUG distribution
    to test the CPU. Testing everything else was "easy" so to speak because once
    you knew the core was right, then it must be bad programming on my part or
    me mis-reading the data sheet.

    I will say that I was pretty afraid of working with C before I started that
    project back in 2000. I worked mostly in Visual BASIC up to that point, all
    the way back to Microsoft BASIC for the Mac. Once I got into it, though, and
    unlearned bad habits from BASIC, I was fine.

    Rich


  9. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:54:52 -0400, Richard A. Cini wrote:

    > On 10/12/08 2:54 PM, in article pan.2008.10.12.18.54.13.960584@unix4fun.org,
    > "Udo Munk" wrote:
    >
    >> Yes, I have seen that already Howard, thanks. I'll use it as a reference
    >> because I have no original machine to mess with.

    >
    >
    > It's funny how many times I've heard and said that :-) The original author
    > of the predecessor to the Altair32 wrote the base code from manuals only
    > while he worked at Microsoft. I didn't get my first S100 machine (an 8800b)
    > until a few years after I had been working on the Altair32. I mostly relied
    > on others to independently test (and sometimes fix) parts that I had
    > written.


    I have written all that stuff from the manuals, but I always verified
    against other systems, how good it works. In the 80's that was no problem,
    I had millions of lines of sources and tons of equipment to test against.
    I got rid off this equipment long ago, so I need some other means to
    verify correctness of operation. One possibility is original programs,
    unmodified, if those run chances are good that the emulation is not too
    buggy. I though about getting S100 original or replica equipment, but
    probably I won't use it at all. So better I leave the few stuff available
    nowadays for those, who really love to have it. My interest is more about
    conserving historic software on virtual machines, which can be used
    without the need for rare parts. Even with replicas not everyone could get
    such a machine, the virtual machines can be used the next few decades on
    anything that computes by anyone who bothers.

    > The key thing for me was finding a test program from the CPMUG
    > distribution to test the CPU. Testing everything else was "easy" so to
    > speak because once you knew the core was right, then it must be bad
    > programming on my part or me mis-reading the data sheet.


    I have had enough issues with emulation of difficult hardware, nor not yet
    existing hardware. Emulation of this well knows systems is a peace of
    cake, nevertheless I try to do this carefully.

    > I will say that I was pretty afraid of working with C before I started
    > that project back in 2000. I worked mostly in Visual BASIC up to that
    > point, all the way back to Microsoft BASIC for the Mac. Once I got into
    > it, though, and unlearned bad habits from BASIC, I was fine.


    I got over BASIC in the late 70s already, also due to work, didn't least
    very long to figure that it was up to very simple tasks only. At that time
    I was familiar with assembles and Fortran/Ratfor already, so I wasn't
    afraid about C or anything. Well, now I don't have a clue about Visual
    BASIC, I'm aware that it is very different from the BASIC stuff we used in
    the 70s and 80s, but somehow I doubt I would like it ;-)

    > Rich


    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  10. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    It does exist and I have it (them ... both 8K and 4k). I thought I'd
    given them to Howard Harte to put in his online library. I bought the
    8K version back in 1977 or 78, and I still have it (as a printed copy
    ..... but I've lost the cassette tape that came with it). I scanned it
    to PDF and someone (don't remember who .... might have been me or might
    have been someone else) OCR'd it back to .ASM source code, which
    assembles to match the OBJECT listing in the source code (well, I think;
    every byte has not been checked, but the addresses all match and the
    source assembles with no errors).

    [I'm guessing that that is my PDF that you found.

    Barry Watzman


    Udo Munk wrote:
    > This BASIC versions for the IMSAI were available with sources, very early
    > form of Open Source. Much to my surprise I cannot find the original source
    > files anywhere on the Internet. I was able to find sources for the 4K
    > version, which someone translated to Z80 mnemonics and modified the tty
    > I/O for some other system. I would like the original source as it was
    > available from IMSAI, unmodified. For the 8K version I was able to find a
    > PDF with the manual and source listing. This could be typed in, but
    > someone probably has this files?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Udo Munk

    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  11. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:01:53 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote:

    > It does exist and I have it (them ... both 8K and 4k). I thought I'd
    > given them to Howard Harte to put in his online library. I bought the
    > 8K version back in 1977 or 78, and I still have it (as a printed copy
    > .... but I've lost the cassette tape that came with it). I scanned it
    > to PDF and someone (don't remember who .... might have been me or might
    > have been someone else) OCR'd it back to .ASM source code, which
    > assembles to match the OBJECT listing in the source code (well, I think;
    > every byte has not been checked, but the addresses all match and the
    > source assembles with no errors).
    >
    > [I'm guessing that that is my PDF that you found.
    >
    > Barry Watzman


    Must be your PDF, I found only one. The source was nowhere to find, but
    someone typed it in from the PDF and send it to me. I've made source,
    listing, loadable hex file and the PDF available at my web site.

    If you still have the original 4K version it would be nice to have a PDF
    for that one too, I would be willing to re-type the source from it. The
    only 4K source I could found is not the original one, well, better than
    nothing so far.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  12. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    I have a source listing for an IMSAI 4K basic, but I found it online
    somewhere .... I didn't have a PDF and the one I bought was the 8K
    version. All that I have is an .ASM file and I don't know where it came
    from (could even be a disassembly, but it is commented). I suspect the
    one you have is the one I have.

    Udo Munk wrote:
    > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:01:53 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote:
    >
    >> It does exist and I have it (them ... both 8K and 4k). I thought I'd
    >> given them to Howard Harte to put in his online library. I bought the
    >> 8K version back in 1977 or 78, and I still have it (as a printed copy
    >> .... but I've lost the cassette tape that came with it). I scanned it
    >> to PDF and someone (don't remember who .... might have been me or might
    >> have been someone else) OCR'd it back to .ASM source code, which
    >> assembles to match the OBJECT listing in the source code (well, I think;
    >> every byte has not been checked, but the addresses all match and the
    >> source assembles with no errors).
    >>
    >> [I'm guessing that that is my PDF that you found.
    >>
    >> Barry Watzman

    >
    > Must be your PDF, I found only one. The source was nowhere to find, but
    > someone typed it in from the PDF and send it to me. I've made source,
    > listing, loadable hex file and the PDF available at my web site.
    >
    > If you still have the original 4K version it would be nice to have a PDF
    > for that one too, I would be willing to re-type the source from it. The
    > only 4K source I could found is not the original one, well, better than
    > nothing so far.
    >
    > Udo Munk

    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  13. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:16:56 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote:

    > I have a source listing for an IMSAI 4K basic, but I found it online
    > somewhere .... I didn't have a PDF and the one I bought was the 8K
    > version. All that I have is an .ASM file and I don't know where it came
    > from (could even be a disassembly, but it is commented). I suspect the
    > one you have is the one I have.


    Yes, that would be the same I have in Z80 mnemonics. I made commented
    changes to the source to use the SIO-2 board, works on my emulation. Not
    sure if it works with the original hardware, I couldn't get the full SIO
    initialization code from the 8K version into it. For that one needs to
    save a few bytes somewhere, for now on emulations it will work. Maybe the
    original source will turn up one day.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  14. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    I just looked on my server and I have the sources for both 4k and 8k BASIC.
    The 4k is in ASM format; the 8k is a listing file (but it would be trivial
    to convert to ASM). The 4k has no version information in the header. The 8k
    has the following as the last entry:

    " ; BASIC30.ASM* 1.4 05/19/77 JRB 8K BASIC"

    If you want them, contact me off-list and I'll send them to you.

    Rich



    On 10/14/08 1:39 PM, in article pan.2008.10.14.17.39.01.929603@unix4fun.org,
    "Udo Munk" wrote:

    > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:16:56 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote:
    >
    >> I have a source listing for an IMSAI 4K basic, but I found it online
    >> somewhere .... I didn't have a PDF and the one I bought was the 8K
    >> version. All that I have is an .ASM file and I don't know where it came
    >> from (could even be a disassembly, but it is commented). I suspect the
    >> one you have is the one I have.

    >
    > Yes, that would be the same I have in Z80 mnemonics. I made commented
    > changes to the source to use the SIO-2 board, works on my emulation. Not
    > sure if it works with the original hardware, I couldn't get the full SIO
    > initialization code from the 8K version into it. For that one needs to
    > save a few bytes somewhere, for now on emulations it will work. Maybe the
    > original source will turn up one day.
    >
    > Udo Munk



  15. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source



    Udo Munk wrote:

    >This BASIC versions for the IMSAI were available with sources, very early
    >form of Open Source. Much to my surprise I cannot find the original source
    >files anywhere on the Internet. I was able to find sources for the 4K
    >version, which someone translated to Z80 mnemonics and modified the tty
    >I/O for some other system. I would like the original source as it was
    >available from IMSAI, unmodified. For the 8K version I was able to find a
    >PDF with the manual and source listing. This could be typed in, but
    >someone probably has this files?


    If you are referring to the famous original BASIC written by
    Bill Gates, he lost it and nobody else saved a copy either.
    There have been attempts to recreate it from memory dumps,
    but the original written-by-Bill-himself comments have been
    lost to posterity forever.

    See what happens when you accuse everyone of being a thief
    instead of freely sharing our code?





  16. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    me@privacy.net wrote:
    (snip)

    > If you are referring to the famous original BASIC written by
    > Bill Gates, he lost it and nobody else saved a copy either.
    > There have been attempts to recreate it from memory dumps,
    > but the original written-by-Bill-himself comments have been
    > lost to posterity forever.


    Is Palo Alto Tiny BASIC still around? I actually knew the
    author at the time. (I was working in a nearby lab.)

    It had the interesting feature that I haven't known for
    other BASIC systems. It allowed expressions for the
    input to INPUT statements. If one set variables to the
    appropriate value, one letter replies would then work.

    -- glen


  17. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:12:45 +0000, me wrote:

    > Udo Munk wrote:
    >
    >>This BASIC versions for the IMSAI were available with sources, very early
    >>form of Open Source. Much to my surprise I cannot find the original source
    >>files anywhere on the Internet. I was able to find sources for the 4K
    >>version, which someone translated to Z80 mnemonics and modified the tty
    >>I/O for some other system. I would like the original source as it was
    >>available from IMSAI, unmodified. For the 8K version I was able to find a
    >>PDF with the manual and source listing. This could be typed in, but
    >>someone probably has this files?

    >
    > If you are referring to the famous original BASIC written by
    > Bill Gates, he lost it and nobody else saved a copy either.
    > There have been attempts to recreate it from memory dumps,
    > but the original written-by-Bill-himself comments have been
    > lost to posterity forever.


    The BASIC interpreters Gates-Allen-Davidoff wrote were for the Altair
    8800, not for the IMSAI 8080. The versions from MITS for the IMSAI were
    distributed with sources and are available.

    The written-by-Bill-himself stuff is not lost, but it is not available
    for the public, see links like this:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/

    Then this is a tiny 4K piece of code, written by 19 year old kids (smart
    ones of course) and it would be not that hard to disassemble, has been
    done too.

    > See what happens when you accuse everyone of being a thief instead of
    > freely sharing our code?


    If he had distributed the sources it would have been "stolen" the same, no
    difference, so yes, one should share such sources, that makes the programs
    even more valuable.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  18. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:18:57 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

    > me@privacy.net wrote:
    > (snip)
    >
    >> If you are referring to the famous original BASIC written by
    >> Bill Gates, he lost it and nobody else saved a copy either.
    >> There have been attempts to recreate it from memory dumps,
    >> but the original written-by-Bill-himself comments have been
    >> lost to posterity forever.

    >
    > Is Palo Alto Tiny BASIC still around? I actually knew the
    > author at the time. (I was working in a nearby lab.)


    Yes, it is on the CP/M CD-ROM, the Sherry version adapted for CP/M. I was
    not able to find the original source tho.

    > It had the interesting feature that I haven't known for other BASIC
    > systems. It allowed expressions for the input to INPUT statements. If
    > one set variables to the appropriate value, one letter replies would
    > then work.
    >
    > -- glen


    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  19. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:32:09 +0200, Udo Munk wrote:

    Ops, I screwed up the link, sorry

    > The written-by-Bill-himself stuff is not lost, but it is not available
    > for the public, see links like this:


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05...e_lost_altair/


    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  20. Re: IMSAI 4K and 8K BASIC source

    "glen herrmannsfeldt" wrote:

    > Is Palo Alto Tiny BASIC still around? I actually knew the
    > author at the time. (I was working in a nearby lab.)


    Er... As far as I know, its Version 3 (the last one) was published
    in the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup...

    (Version 2 was published in "Interface Age" magazine. Version
    1 in DDJ, the first year of DDJ, when they published the source
    codes of 5 Tiny BASICs. Historically, the first Tiny BASIC
    was TBX ("Tiny BASIC Extended") by Whipple&Arnold.)

    (According to Wikipedia, "In 2004 Dr. Wang was employed
    as Chief Technical Officer at ACTiSYS in Fremont, CA
    focused on IR/mobile products.")

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France




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