Anyone using an ASR-33 teletype with a Telebyte 65A converter?

I'm trying to hookup one. I have a Telebyte model 65A (20ma - RS232
converter) box. It passes the loopback test (with Windows Hyperterm 110
baud 8N2), but I can't seem to get anything to communicate. Since it passes
the loopback test, I'm assuming the problem lies with the connection to the
TTY. I'm connecting wires between the TTY terminal strip and the 65A as
follows: (as far as I can tell, this the way to do it, but I may be wrong.)

TTY terminal strip: 3 4 6 7
Telebyte 65A: C- C+ K- K+

The manual says the 65A can be used to hookup teletypes, but doesn't say
exactly how, and tech support wasn't too helpful.

I checked and the TTY is set for 20ma full duplex. I think either there may
be something seriously wrong with the TTY (not likely as it was recently
checked out by an ex-WU serviceman), I've bungled the wiring, or I'm missing
some important bit of arcane lore from the dim ages of computing.

-John

"John Crane" <jc email> wrote in message
news:m6Odnf9Xpeza1yrVnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@pghconnect.com...[color=blue]
> I'm trying to hookup one. I have a Telebyte model 65A (20ma - RS232
> converter) box. It passes the loopback test (with Windows Hyperterm 110
> baud 8N2), but I can't seem to get anything to communicate. Since it
> passes the loopback test, I'm assuming the problem lies with the
> connection to the TTY. I'm connecting wires between the TTY terminal
> strip and the 65A as follows: (as far as I can tell, this the way to do
> it, but I may be wrong.)
>
> TTY terminal strip: 3 4 6 7
> Telebyte 65A: C- C+ K- K+
>
> The manual says the 65A can be used to hookup teletypes, but doesn't say
> exactly how, and tech support wasn't too helpful.
>
> I checked and the TTY is set for 20ma full duplex. I think either there
> may be something seriously wrong with the TTY (not likely as it was
> recently checked out by an ex-WU serviceman), I've bungled the wiring, or
> I'm missing some important bit of arcane lore from the dim ages of
> computing.[/color]

When you have the TTY in Line mode, does it chatter? If it does, then
you don't have current to the current loop. You need to configure
both transmitter and receiver as passive and have the supplemental
12V power supply connected to the 65A BEFORE you plug it into the
wall. Try reversing the K polarity then the C polarity. An incorrect
connection
won't hurt it just won't work. Also try both DTE and DCE settings. You can
change the position of the switch while power is on to test it.
The default settings on an ASR-33 are 110 baud, Even parity, 7 data bits, 2
stop
bits unless you've changed them with the jumpers located inside the unit on
the
lower right of the keyboard..

Tom Lake

"Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:g984ti$c13$1@news.albasani.net...[color=blue]
> When you have the TTY in Line mode, does it chatter? If it does, then
> you don't have current to the current loop. You need to configure
> both transmitter and receiver as passive and have the supplemental
> 12V power supply connected to the 65A BEFORE you plug it into the
> wall. Try reversing the K polarity then the C polarity. An incorrect
> connection
> won't hurt it just won't work. Also try both DTE and DCE settings. You
> can
> change the position of the switch while power is on to test it.
> The default settings on an ASR-33 are 110 baud, Even parity, 7 data bits,
> 2 stop
> bits unless you've changed them with the jumpers located inside the unit
> on the
> lower right of the keyboard..
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

[ ] Yes it does chatter in Line mode. How do I get current in the
loop? Is it supplied by the TTY or the 65A?

[check] Tx and Rx are set to passive.

[check] I connect the PS to the 65A before plugging it into the wall.

[ ] Tried swapping K and C wire sets, but kept polarity. I can try
swapping the polarity next.

[check] Tried both DTE and DCE.

[ ] I'll reset Hyperterm for 7 data bits.

-John

> [ ] Yes it does chatter in Line mode. How do I get current in the[color=blue]
> loop? Is it supplied by the TTY or the 65A?[/color]

It's supposed to be supplied by the 65A's 12 V adapter. If the adapter is
working
then the problem is a defective 65A or the polarity of the wires is wrong.

Try this sequence of testing in Line mode. Power down the TTY and hook up
the wires shown in Row 1 then repower the TTY. If the chattering continues,
power
off and try the next row in the grid. When you can power up without
chatter,
you've got the correct polarity so leave the pair that works connected,
power down
and hook the other pair up to the two free terminals (polarity won't matter
on those)

TTY 3 4 6 7
Row 1 C- C+ Leave K wires unconnected
Row 2 C+ C- "
Row 3 C- C+ "
Row 4 C+ C- "
Row 5 K+ K- Leave C wires unconnected
Row 6 K- K+ "
Row 7 K+ K- "
Row 8 K- K+ "

If you make it through all rows above and chattering never stops,
The 65A or its 12 V adapter is defective since you know the TTY is working.
Let us know what sequence works for you!

Tom Lake

"Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:g9a6dg$oit$1@news.albasani.net...[color=blue][color=green]
>> [ ] Yes it does chatter in Line mode. How do I get current in the
>> loop? Is it supplied by the TTY or the 65A?[/color]
>
> It's supposed to be supplied by the 65A's 12 V adapter. If the adapter is
> working
> then the problem is a defective 65A or the polarity of the wires is wrong.[/color]



Thanks Tom!

I'm halfway home.

I got it to print text entered on Hyperterm, but nothing entered on the TTY
keyboard showed up on the Hyperterm screen. I just hear the keyboard
mechanical noise and a short buzz from somewhere in the call control unit. I
also noticed that the little LCD on the 65A was showing data going from the
PC to TTY when I was typing in Hyperterm, but NOT showing data going from
the TTY to PC when I was typing on the TTY. Also, I take it the TTY doesn't
have "local echo" as nothing came up on the TTY printer when I hit it's
keyboard. But it does work fine in LOCAL mode.

My setup is now:

TTY term strip: 3 4 6 7
65A term strip: C- C+ K+ K-

Transmit: Passive
Receive: Passive
Duplex: Full

Hyperterm is at 110 7N2 Emulation type: TTY
I also tried the "force input to 7bit ASCII" option, but no go.

-John

"John Crane" <jc email> wrote in message
news:3fWdnQC7767wNyXVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@pghconnect.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:g9a6dg$oit$1@news.albasani.net...[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> [ ] Yes it does chatter in Line mode. How do I get current in the
>>> loop? Is it supplied by the TTY or the 65A?[/color]
>>
>> It's supposed to be supplied by the 65A's 12 V adapter. If the adapter
>> is working
>> then the problem is a defective 65A or the polarity of the wires is
>> wrong.[/color]
>
>
>
> Thanks Tom!
>
> I'm halfway home.
>
> I got it to print text entered on Hyperterm, but nothing entered on the
> TTY keyboard showed up on the Hyperterm screen. I just hear the keyboard
> mechanical noise and a short buzz from somewhere in the call control unit.
> I also noticed that the little LCD on the 65A was showing data going from
> the PC to TTY when I was typing in Hyperterm, but NOT showing data going
> from the TTY to PC when I was typing on the TTY. Also, I take it the TTY
> doesn't have "local echo" as nothing came up on the TTY printer when I hit
> it's keyboard. But it does work fine in LOCAL mode.[/color]
[color=blue]
> Duplex: Full <---------------------------NO!!!!![/color]

You're right about the TTY not having local echo. It expects the receiver
to send back the character. That's why you need to use Half Duplex
rather than Full.

Tom Lake

"Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:g9aqea$asq$1@news.albasani.net...[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> Duplex: Full <---------------------------NO!!!!![/color]
>
> You're right about the TTY not having local echo. It expects the receiver
> to send back the character. That's why you need to use Half Duplex
> rather than Full.
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

Tom,

That opens up another can of worms. The user guide for the 65A shows 2-wire
connections (K+ and C- only) for half duplex, not the 4 -wire connections
I've been using. There is a little slide switch for half/full duplex, but I
get the same results the same no matter what setting. I tried going to a
two wire setup, keeping my current K+ and trying all the other wires for C-,
but they all caused the chatter to return.

-John

On Aug 30, 1:47*am, "Tom Lake" <tl...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> "John Crane" <jc email> wrote in messagenews:3fWdnQC7767wNyXVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@pghconnect.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[color=green]
> > "Tom Lake" <tl...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:g9a6dg$oit$1@news.albasani.net...[color=darkred]
> >>> [ * *] *Yes it does chatter in Line *mode. *How do I get current in the
> >>> loop? Is it supplied by the TTY or the 65A?[/color][/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> It's supposed to be supplied by the 65A's 12 V adapter. *If the adapter
> >> is working
> >> then the problem is a defective 65A or the polarity of the wires is
> >> wrong.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Thanks Tom![/color]
>[color=green]
> > I'm halfway home.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > I got it to print text entered on Hyperterm, but nothing entered on the
> > TTY keyboard showed up on the Hyperterm screen. *I just hear the keyboard
> > mechanical noise and a short buzz from somewhere in the call control unit.
> > I also noticed that the little LCD on the 65A was showing data going from
> > the PC to TTY when I was typing in Hyperterm, but NOT showing data going
> > from the TTY to PC when I was typing on the TTY. *Also, I take it theTTY
> > doesn't have "local echo" as nothing came up on the TTY printer when I hit
> > it's keyboard. *But it does work fine in LOCAL mode.
> > Duplex: Full *<---------------------------NO!!!!![/color]
>
> You're right about the TTY not having local echo. *It expects the receiver
> to send back the character. *That's why you need to use Half Duplex
> rather than Full.
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

Setting it up for a museum or what?
Does it have the paper tape reader/punch?

> Setting it up for a museum or what?[color=blue]
> Does it have the paper tape reader/punch?[/color]

Yes it does. That's what ASR means, Automatic
Send/Receive. If it had no reader/punch it would be a KSR
(Keyboard Send/Receive).

If it also had no keyboard, it would be an RO (Receive Only)

I don't know what he's going to use his for but
I'm going to use my ASR-33 with my Altair 8800 replica
once Grant Stockly sends it to me.

Tom Lake

Tom Lake wrote:[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> Setting it up for a museum or what?
>> Does it have the paper tape reader/punch?[/color]
>
> Yes it does. That's what ASR means, Automatic Send/Receive. If
> it had no reader/punch it would be a KSR (Keyboard Send/Receive).
>
> If it also had no keyboard, it would be an RO (Receive Only)
>
> I don't know what he's going to use his for but I'm going to use
> my ASR-33 with my Altair 8800 replica once Grant Stockly sends it
> to me.[/color]

Careful. Teletype service and spare parts are not as available as
they once were. My experience with the 33 series is that they will
last about one year. So I suggest looking on it as a museum
display.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.

On Oct 25, 2:32*pm, "Tom Lake" <tl...@twcny.rr.com> wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> I don't know what he's going to use his for but I'm going to use
> >> my ASR-33 with my Altair 8800 replica once Grant Stockly sends it
> >> to me.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Careful. *Teletype service and spare parts are not as available as
> > they once were. *My experience with the 33 series is that they will
> > last about one year. *So I suggest looking on it as a museum
> > display.[/color]
>
> Thanks for the warning but I have a good supply of spare parts now
> and can make some of my own. *The ASR-33s we used in High School
> were run 8 hrs a day 5 days a week and lasted 5 years each with no major
> repairs. *I only use my Teletype about 1 - 2 hours a day a couple days a
> week.
> I do recommend *the Teletype service manuals for anyone who wants to run
> one. *They're almost always available on eBay.
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

They sure made a distinctive racket!

20 ma current loop on those was a nuisance
for me even back in 1978. The few times I
used one for paper tape on the Altair 8800B
(had ROM bootstrap) I think I used an
acoustic coupler modem (300) just
for the RS232/20ma conversion.
I did a lot of cross connecting between
various computers using RS232 and
even used the "secondary" section
of RS232 pins/wires (scarcely documented).

A friend worked out the binary and wrote
a program to punch banners, eye readable
text using the binary punches. The part that
had me scratching my head was that he
wrote this on a network that used 7 bit data
and a PARITY bit. I never worked out how he
kept the parity punches from interfering with
the lettering.

Plunging the key travel on those might be part
of why I am still a bit hard on other keyboards.

The noise of the printing, bell and carriage
would certainly inform visitors to a museum.

All,


I have the TTY (an ASR-33 with tape reader/punch) connected to a vintage
Altair 8800 running MITS 4K Basic. I wanted a "snapshot" of a particular
time in history for this machine. I have 4 machines setup to represent
various levels of technology development from the mid 70's to the early
80's.

The TTY works perfectly. It was recently overhauled by a retired Western
Union technician. I also bought a backup TTY for parts if needed (although
it works too) along with the full manual set.

In retrospect, the problem was my own ignorance. TTY terminal strips 4 and
6 need to be connected together for computer use. I never found this in the
Telebyte manual, the newbies at their tech support, or any Altair manual
that I have for that matter. I did find a connection diagram in the docs
for my SWTPC 6800 system though. And that was all I needed.

-J

"Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gdve7a$mqd$1@news.albasani.net...
[color=blue]
> Thanks for the warning but I have a good supply of spare parts now
> and can make some of my own. The ASR-33s we used in High School
> were run 8 hrs a day 5 days a week and lasted 5 years each with no major
> repairs. I only use my Teletype about 1 - 2 hours a day a couple days a
> week.
> I do recommend the Teletype service manuals for anyone who wants to run
> one. They're almost always available on eBay.
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

That's my memory from high school too!

We beat the hell out of those machines and they still kept working.

Nothing like the flicker of LEDs, the smell of hot oil, and earplugs.

For those unfamiliar with working on those old beasts - it's more like
working on your car than a computer... there's belts, camshafts, oil,
relays, a distributor, a motor... and not a chip in sight. Although there a
a few power transistors in mine.

-John

In article <Ua-dnSma2M9-S5TUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@pghconnect.com> "John Crane" <jc email> writes:[color=blue]
>
>The TTY works perfectly. It was recently overhauled by a retired Western
>Union technician. I also bought a backup TTY for parts if needed (although
>[/color]

I have two 33s in need of work. Would you mind telling where this tech is
and what he charges?

Thanks!

"John Crane" <jc email> wrote in message
news:Ua-dnSma2M9-S5TUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@pghconnect.com...[color=blue]
>
> All,
>
>
> I have the TTY (an ASR-33 with tape reader/punch) connected to a vintage Altair
> 8800 running MITS 4K Basic. I wanted a "snapshot" of a particular time in history
> for this machine. I have 4 machines setup to represent various levels of
> technology development from the mid 70's to the early 80's.[/color]

Is there any chance I could get a paper tape copy of 4K BASIC from you? I'd
send you an entire roll of paper tape as payment and you could send
back the copy. Do you have 8K or 12K Extended BASIC on paper tape or cassette?
I'm looking for those, too.

Tom Lake

"Bill Sudbrink" <bill@umsa7.ums.edu> wrote in message
news:gecpav$2bu1$1@news.ums.edu...[color=blue]
> In article <Ua-dnSma2M9-S5TUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@pghconnect.com> "John Crane" <jc
> email> writes:[color=green]
>>
>>The TTY works perfectly. It was recently overhauled by a retired Western
>>Union technician. I also bought a backup TTY for parts if needed (although
>>[/color]
>
> I have two 33s in need of work. Would you mind telling where this tech is
> and what he charges?[/color]

There's an excellent Teletype tech in Vermont

Wayne Durkee
977 Walker Mt. Road
N. Clarendon, VT 05759
USA
[email]Teletypeparts@aol.com[/email]

Tell him I sent you (or not I have no financial interest one way or the other)

Tom Lake

John Crane wrote:[color=blue]
> "Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Thanks for the warning but I have a good supply of spare parts now
>> and can make some of my own. The ASR-33s we used in High School
>> were run 8 hrs a day 5 days a week and lasted 5 years each with no
>> major repairs. I only use my Teletype about 1 - 2 hours a day a
>> couple days a week. I do recommend the Teletype service manuals
>> for anyone who wants to run one. They're almost always available
>> on eBay.[/color]
>
> That's my memory from high school too!
>
> We beat the hell out of those machines and they still kept working.
>
> Nothing like the flicker of LEDs, the smell of hot oil, and earplugs.
>
> For those unfamiliar with working on those old beasts - it's more
> like working on your car than a computer... there's belts, camshafts,
> oil, relays, a distributor, a motor... and not a chip in sight.
> Although there a a few power transistors in mine.[/color]

My major memory is that they had to be turned off, otherwise the
engaging clutches would seize up within a year. Our applications
needed them running, so they could receive medical messages. We
were saved when Epsom printers appeared, i.e. the MX80.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.

"Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gecvoh$q5k$1@news.albasani.net...[color=blue]
>
>
> "Bill Sudbrink" <bill@umsa7.ums.edu> wrote in message
> news:gecpav$2bu1$1@news.ums.edu...[color=green]
>> In article <Ua-dnSma2M9-S5TUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@pghconnect.com> "John Crane"
>> <jc email> writes:[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>The TTY works perfectly. It was recently overhauled by a retired Western
>>>Union technician. I also bought a backup TTY for parts if needed
>>>(although
>>>[/color]
>>
>> I have two 33s in need of work. Would you mind telling where this tech
>> is
>> and what he charges?[/color]
>
> There's an excellent Teletype tech in Vermont
>
> Wayne Durkee
> 977 Walker Mt. Road
> N. Clarendon, VT 05759
> USA
> [email]Teletypeparts@aol.com[/email]
>
> Tell him I sent you (or not I have no financial interest one way or the
> other)
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

That's the man!

He's not really a "computer guy", but he can fix a teletype in his sleep. I
learned a lot from just listening to him talk on the phone about his
projects.

-John

"Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gecv69$pa0$1@news.albasani.net...[color=blue]
>
>
> "John Crane" <jc email> wrote in message
> news:Ua-dnSma2M9-S5TUnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@pghconnect.com...[color=green]
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>> I have the TTY (an ASR-33 with tape reader/punch) connected to a vintage
>> Altair 8800 running MITS 4K Basic. I wanted a "snapshot" of a particular
>> time in history for this machine. I have 4 machines setup to represent
>> various levels of technology development from the mid 70's to the early
>> 80's.[/color]
>
> Is there any chance I could get a paper tape copy of 4K BASIC from you?
> I'd
> send you an entire roll of paper tape as payment and you could send
> back the copy. Do you have 8K or 12K Extended BASIC on paper tape or
> cassette?
> I'm looking for those, too.
>
> Tom Lake[/color]

Hey Tom,

Sounds like we're working on similar systems! Good luck on that Stockley
kit. I've got one of his 680's, and I'm very impressed with his attention
to detail. A good engineer and a real go-getter. Picking up the pieces
after 35+ years is no small feat.

I'll email you the MITS BASIC files. You can send these out to your TTY
and punch the tapes yourself. Use a non-protocol binary transfer. Hyperterm
doesn't do it, but try Tera Term Pro.

On my system, I added a toggle switch on the back panel that switches
between 9600 baud 8N1 and 110 baud 7E2. I set it to 110 when I want to use
the TTY (and then feed the RS-232 to a Telebyte 20ma converter), and 9600
for CRT. I've also made a monitor chip that has a built in loader for BASIC
that you can run from the TTY or CRT. Nice to load BASIC @ 9600 baud!
Check them out, I'm selling them on ebay:

[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270294829711&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=017[/url]

I'll send you one for free if you want. Let me know where to send it.

I'm also working on a Xmodem chip to allow direct high speed transfer from a
PC with error checking. I've got Xmodem working on the Altair, but it's
going to be tough getting it all in a 1K 2708 chip. I guess I'm spoiled; I
like to do my development work on the PC using cross assemblers/compilers
and then zap the finished product over to the Altair.

-John

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:56:37 -0500, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>John Crane wrote:[color=green]
>> "Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Thanks for the warning but I have a good supply of spare parts now
>>> and can make some of my own. The ASR-33s we used in High School
>>> were run 8 hrs a day 5 days a week and lasted 5 years each with no
>>> major repairs. I only use my Teletype about 1 - 2 hours a day a
>>> couple days a week. I do recommend the Teletype service manuals
>>> for anyone who wants to run one. They're almost always available
>>> on eBay.[/color]
>>
>> That's my memory from high school too!
>>
>> We beat the hell out of those machines and they still kept working.
>>
>> Nothing like the flicker of LEDs, the smell of hot oil, and earplugs.
>>
>> For those unfamiliar with working on those old beasts - it's more
>> like working on your car than a computer... there's belts, camshafts,
>> oil, relays, a distributor, a motor... and not a chip in sight.
>> Although there a a few power transistors in mine.[/color]
>
>My major memory is that they had to be turned off, otherwise the
>engaging clutches would seize up within a year. Our applications
>needed them running, so they could receive medical messages.[/color]

I am pretty sure that TTYs required routine preventive maintenance.
I once knew a firm that did just that.
[color=blue]
>We were saved when Epsom printers appeared, i.e. the MX80.[/color]
When those kinds of printers started appearing, the owner of that same
firm did some tests. He would connect the printer to a character
generater, give it all the paper it wanted, and wait until it died.
The only printer that he gave up on waiting to die was an OkiData
ML82. I bought one of them in about 1976. Still have it. Still
works as of the last time I used it some 5 or 10 years ago. I would
probably have trouble finding ribbons for it now - Okidata ribbons,
that is.
--
ArarghMail810 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] [url]http://www.arargh.com[/url]
BCET Basic Compiler Page: [url]http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html[/url]

To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.