S-100 Tape Interface? - CP/M

This is a discussion on S-100 Tape Interface? - CP/M ; Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100 computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives? Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o? Bill H www.ts1000.us...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: S-100 Tape Interface?

  1. S-100 Tape Interface?

    Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?

    Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?

    Bill H www.ts1000.us


  2. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    In article <1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups. com> "Bill H" writes:
    >Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >
    >Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >
    >Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >


    You bet! A very early cassette interface was the Tarbell for S-100.
    The usual way to interface to it under CP/M was to set up the CBIOS
    PUN and RDR routines to access it. Google tarbell cassette for more
    info.


  3. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On 3 Feb 2006 12:17:43 -0800, "Bill H" wrote:

    >Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >
    >Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >
    >Bill H www.ts1000.us


    Ah yes. At any point there were 9Track tapes, DC100, DC300 tapes,
    Exitron(SP??) stringy floppy (continious loop tape). The Coleco Adam
    that used tape as did the Epson PX8 cpm laptop as a floppy analog.

    CP/M doesn't care what the device is, only that it's block addressable
    (random access). It's the job of the BIOS to sort out how to talk to
    the device given drive, track and sector.

    Allison


  4. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    In article <1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups. com> "Bill H" writes:
    >Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >
    >Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >
    >Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >


    I forgot to answer the last part of your question... CP/M requires
    a randomly addressable block mode storage device, so you can't run
    it on a system with only a cassette drive.


  5. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:36:30 +0000 (UTC), bill@umsa7.ums.edu (Bill
    Sudbrink) wrote:

    >In article <1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups. com> "Bill H" writes:
    >>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >>
    >>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >>
    >>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >>

    >
    >I forgot to answer the last part of your question... CP/M requires
    >a randomly addressable block mode storage device, so you can't run
    >it on a system with only a cassette drive.


    He didn't ask that. But true only to a point. If you can write a
    bios that can find a block on the tape and control the drive to do it
    you can. It might be slow but, it has been done.

    However, caveat is that punch and reader will easily drive a Percom
    C812, or other casette interface (MITS ACR) as Punch/reader as well.
    That would apply to stream oriented tape devices very nicely.


    Allison

  6. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    In article Allison-nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net writes:
    >On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:36:30 +0000 (UTC), bill@umsa7.ums.edu (Bill
    >Sudbrink) wrote:
    >
    >>In article <1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups. com> "Bill H" writes:
    >>>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >>>
    >>>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >>>
    >>>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >>>

    >>
    >>I forgot to answer the last part of your question... CP/M requires
    >>a randomly addressable block mode storage device, so you can't run
    >>it on a system with only a cassette drive.

    >
    >He didn't ask that.


    I interpreted the "instead of a floppy..." part of the question
    to imply that.

    > But true only to a point. If you can write a
    >bios that can find a block on the tape and control the drive to do it
    >you can. It might be slow but, it has been done.


    Hmmm... I would think that that would require a cassette player
    with not only stop and play remotely controllable but also fast
    forward and rewind. I have seen plenty of cassette units with
    stop and play by wire but never one with fast forward or rewind.


  7. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    Yes, my IMSAI 8080 has a cassette interface card in it, as well as a floppy
    controller.

    -John


    "Bill H" wrote in message
    news:1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
    > Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    > computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >
    > Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >
    > Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >




  8. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    The op was not talking about "just any" cassette interface. He was very
    specifically referring to cassette drives that used a floppy disk
    controller card for their interface (with a 34-pin floppy cable). This
    was a digital cassette system, and the various analog systems based on
    audio cassettes used by early computers (Tarbell, CUTS, Kansas City
    Standard, etc.) don't meet the criteria posed in the original question.


    John Crane wrote:

    > Yes, my IMSAI 8080 has a cassette interface card in it, as well as a floppy
    > controller.
    >
    > -John
    >
    >
    > "Bill H" wrote in message
    > news:1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
    >
    >>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >>
    >>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >>
    >>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >>

    >
    >
    >


  9. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On 3 Feb 2006 12:17:43 -0800
    "Bill H" wrote:

    > Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    > computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?


    AFAIK, the Coleco Adam is the only one that ran CP/M from tape, and it
    was not S-100. There was a cassette drive that had electrical controls
    which could be used by BIOS routines to control the tape motion, but it
    was only used by one company (Colorado Computer Systems?) that had an
    operating system using it, and again, not S-100. I seriously considered
    getting one instead of the original Shugart SA400 SSSD 35-track
    minifloppy and CP/M 1.4. Still have the data package on the drive
    somewhere...

    > Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?


    Implemented by many users as RDR/PUN devices as others have already
    pointed out. I used an S100 cassette interface (Percom, I think) at
    switch-selectable 300/600/1200 bps FSK or 2400 bps PSK. Since many
    people did this, there was no standard, with each doing 'their own
    thing'. The only 'standard' for this scheme was the 300 bps 'Kansas
    City' standard which only specified frequencies and data rates, not how
    the data was formatted (sync/async, formats, etc). I used 128-byte
    blocks coded as hex records in Intel Hex format (Start character of ':',
    address, byte count, record type, 16-bytes of data and one byte
    checksum). I used this extensively as backup and restoral and to
    transfer files between 5.25" (CP/M 1.4) and 8" (CP/M 2.2) systems.

    Hal

  10. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    >Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?


    There were lots - I've got photos and the manuals for a few of the
    common ones up on my site (Mits ACR, Tarbell and ProcTech
    CUTS).


    >Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?


    Same way you handled paper tape - Punch and Reader.


    --
    dave04a@ Collector of classic pre-PC computer systems.
    dunfield. If you have an old 8/16 bit non-PC system in need of a good
    com home, please contact me at email address on the left, or
    via contact link of this web site:
    http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html


  11. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    >>I forgot to answer the last part of your question... CP/M requires
    >>a randomly addressable block mode storage device, so you can't run
    >>it on a system with only a cassette drive.


    >He didn't ask that. But true only to a point. If you can write a
    >bios that can find a block on the tape and control the drive to do it
    >you can. It might be slow but, it has been done.



    This wasn't CP/M, however for one of my earliest home-built machines...

    The university was decomissioning a system in the language lab which
    included of a bank of solinoid controlled rack-mount 5" real-to-real audio
    tape decks.

    Being a student with much more spare time than money, I scrounged one,
    modified it to do digital recording and spent hours gluing strips of tinfoil at
    intervals on a reel of tape, so that I could use the end-of-tape photosensor
    (modified) to detect them. Effectively creating a "hard sector" tape.

    Then I wrote an OS which allowed me to store files on the tape, kept a
    directory, and allowed me to read and write them by name. It was very
    primitive, files had to be sequential (no fragmented allocation scheme),
    but it worked. And allowed me to operate the computer without having
    to touch the tape drive (just like the big machines!).

    I do have a photo of this beast posted for anyone who is interested.
    It's on my site, in the Altair 8800 section, under "Photo Gallery", I have
    a photo of my homebuilt which preceded the Altair (It's the one near
    the bottom with a TV for a monitor and a Model-28 teletype for a
    printer) - on the table near the middle, you can see the rack mount
    open reel tape drive.

    (PS: The little box under the table is a current-loop interface for the
    TTY - it was driven from the Interrupt Enable output of the 8080, and
    I would print by bit-banging the 5-bit Baudot code via a timed series
    of enabling and disabling interrupts - Obviously I didn't use interrupts
    for anything else in this system)

    --
    Dunfield Development Services http://www.dunfield.com
    Low cost software development tools for embedded systems
    Software/firmware development services Fax:613-256-5821


  12. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    Hmmm...

    Must be that new definition of "instead", I've heard about...



    -JC


    "Barry Watzman" wrote in message
    news:43E3D48F.9080907@neo.rr.com...
    > The op was not talking about "just any" cassette interface. He was very
    > specifically referring to cassette drives that used a floppy disk
    > controller card for their interface (with a 34-pin floppy cable). This
    > was a digital cassette system, and the various analog systems based on
    > audio cassettes used by early computers (Tarbell, CUTS, Kansas City
    > Standard, etc.) don't meet the criteria posed in the original question.
    >
    >
    > John Crane wrote:
    >
    > > Yes, my IMSAI 8080 has a cassette interface card in it, as well as a

    floppy
    > > controller.
    > >
    > > -John
    > >
    > >
    > > "Bill H" wrote in message
    > > news:1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
    > >
    > >>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    > >>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    > >>
    > >>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    > >>
    > >>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > >




  13. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    > AFAIK, the Coleco Adam is the only one that ran CP/M from tape, and it
    > was not S-100.


    Thre was an Epson portable that did, too.

    Tom Lake



  14. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:17:31 +0000 (UTC), bill@umsa7.ums.edu (Bill
    Sudbrink) wrote:

    >In article Allison-nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net writes:
    >>On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:36:30 +0000 (UTC), bill@umsa7.ums.edu (Bill
    >>Sudbrink) wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups. com> "Bill H" writes:
    >>>>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>>>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >>>>
    >>>>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >>>>
    >>>>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>I forgot to answer the last part of your question... CP/M requires
    >>>a randomly addressable block mode storage device, so you can't run
    >>>it on a system with only a cassette drive.

    >>
    >>He didn't ask that.

    >
    >I interpreted the "instead of a floppy..." part of the question
    >to imply that.
    >
    >> But true only to a point. If you can write a
    >>bios that can find a block on the tape and control the drive to do it
    >>you can. It might be slow but, it has been done.

    >
    >Hmmm... I would think that that would require a cassette player
    >with not only stop and play remotely controllable but also fast
    >forward and rewind. I have seen plenty of cassette units with
    >stop and play by wire but never one with fast forward or rewind.


    Redactron(cassette), PHIDECK(cassette), any DC100 or DC300.

    I have a Adam drive, several DC100 drives and a MFE drive left over
    from the days when I'd expeimented with tape for "disk". Some of the
    Cassette based phone answering machines were good candidates
    for a controllable drive. the the best hack of them all was using
    a DEC TU-58, DC100 256k per tape with full block addressability
    with a serial interface. The TU-58 controller had a high level
    interface and would do all of the work.

    Fast forward/rewind is not required, you just wait longer.

    Allison

  15. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:09:24 GMT, Barry Watzman
    wrote:

    >The op was not talking about "just any" cassette interface. He was very
    >specifically referring to cassette drives that used a floppy disk
    >controller card for their interface (with a 34-pin floppy cable). This
    >was a digital cassette system, and the various analog systems based on
    >audio cassettes used by early computers (Tarbell, CUTS, Kansas City
    >Standard, etc.) don't meet the criteria posed in the original question.


    Why dont they? There were plenty of digital cassette systems
    that even predate Altair!

    There were three or four vendors of DIGITAL tapes but none used the
    FDC interface (too fast for the tapes of the time).

    However if your talking abput the streaming drives that used the
    floppy interface that appeared some years after the invention of the
    286PC, yes CP/M could handle them too. Though by then only crazies
    like me would even try it.

    Allison
    >
    >
    >John Crane wrote:
    >
    >> Yes, my IMSAI 8080 has a cassette interface card in it, as well as a floppy
    >> controller.
    >>
    >> -John
    >>
    >>
    >> "Bill H" wrote in message
    >> news:1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
    >>
    >>>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >>>
    >>>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >>>
    >>>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>



  16. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    "Hal" wrote in message
    news:20060203171852.3ab86fb3.halbower@verizon.net. ..
    > On 3 Feb 2006 12:17:43 -0800
    > "Bill H" wrote:
    >
    > > Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    > > computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?

    >
    > AFAIK, the Coleco Adam is the only one that ran CP/M from tape, and it
    > was not S-100. There was a cassette drive that had electrical controls
    > which could be used by BIOS routines to control the tape motion, but it
    > was only used by one company (Colorado Computer Systems?) that had an
    > operating system using it, and again, not S-100. I seriously considered
    > getting one instead of the original Shugart SA400 SSSD 35-track
    > minifloppy and CP/M 1.4. Still have the data package on the drive
    > somewhere...


    I was going to point out The Digital Group (
    http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retroc...digital_group/ ), and they're
    digital, computer controlled cassette drives, but I just looked it up and
    realized that they weren't S100 machines. I guess I never looked all that
    closely before.

    - Bill



  17. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:17:22 GMT, Hal wrote:

    >On 3 Feb 2006 12:17:43 -0800
    >"Bill H" wrote:
    >
    >> Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >> computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?

    >
    >AFAIK, the Coleco Adam is the only one that ran CP/M from tape, and it
    >was not S-100. There was a cassette drive that had electrical controls
    >which could be used by BIOS routines to control the tape motion, but it
    >was only used by one company (Colorado Computer Systems?) that had an
    >operating system using it, and again, not S-100. I seriously considered
    >getting one instead of the original Shugart SA400 SSSD 35-track
    >minifloppy and CP/M 1.4. Still have the data package on the drive
    >somewhere...


    Digital group used tape and there was a PHIdeck based system .

    >
    >> Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?

    >
    >Implemented by many users as RDR/PUN devices as others have already
    >pointed out. I used an S100 cassette interface (Percom, I think) at
    >switch-selectable 300/600/1200 bps FSK or 2400 bps PSK. Since many
    >people did this, there was no standard, with each doing 'their own
    >thing'. The only 'standard' for this scheme was the 300 bps 'Kansas
    >City' standard which only specified frequencies and data rates, not how
    >the data was formatted (sync/async, formats, etc). I used 128-byte
    >blocks coded as hex records in Intel Hex format (Start character of ':',
    >address, byte count, record type, 16-bytes of data and one byte
    >checksum). I used this extensively as backup and restoral and to
    >transfer files between 5.25" (CP/M 1.4) and 8" (CP/M 2.2) systems.
    >
    >Hal


    I used the Percom C812 after retiring the MITS 88ACR. However the
    board was modded to output digital levels to a tape unit that used
    saturation recording (not audio) at 4800 baud. made a good back up
    and load media.

    As to standards, they existed at the vendor level.

    Allison

  18. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 01:21:23 GMT, "Tom Lake"
    wrote:

    >> AFAIK, the Coleco Adam is the only one that ran CP/M from tape, and it
    >> was not S-100.

    >
    >Thre was an Epson portable that did, too.
    >
    >Tom Lake


    Hal was clear. The Epson did use microcassette but it did not load
    CP/M from tape (used rom instead) and it wasn't S100.

    Allison


  19. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:57:17 GMT,
    Dave.Dunfield@use.techsupport.link.on.my.website (Dave Dunfield)
    wrote:

    >>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?

    >
    >There were lots - I've got photos and the manuals for a few of the
    >common ones up on my site (Mits ACR, Tarbell and ProcTech
    >CUTS).


    National Data had DC100 and DC300 tapes with interfaces.
    The Tarbell was most popular and had enough IO for control signals.

    >>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?

    >
    >Same way you handled paper tape - Punch and Reader.


    Allison

  20. Re: S-100 Tape Interface?

    On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:09:24 GMT, Barry Watzman
    wrote:

    >The op was not talking about "just any" cassette interface. He was very
    >specifically referring to cassette drives that used a floppy disk
    >controller card for their interface (with a 34-pin floppy cable). This
    >was a digital cassette system, and the various analog systems based on
    >audio cassettes used by early computers (Tarbell, CUTS, Kansas City
    >Standard, etc.) don't meet the criteria posed in the original question.
    >

    __________________________________________________ ______

    Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?

    Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Where is the specification of using floppy card? The question asked
    was were there subsystems available to use where floppy was used?

    Yes, but no special routines that are part of CP/M are required. All
    devices are interfaced as possible analogs of Console, Punch/reader
    or disk. Since a driver for tape can easily be made to simulate disk
    or a punch/reader the bios would be the location of those "routines
    in CP/M to handle tape i/o".

    Ignoring speed issues any of the audio interfaces could do the job.

    FYI: some of the names you tossed out were format standards
    rather than the acutal board(s). IE: Kansas City Standard refers to
    redundant FM encoded at 300 baud, there were at least 5 vendors
    making boards that could produce that standard.


    Allison

    >
    >John Crane wrote:
    >
    >> Yes, my IMSAI 8080 has a cassette interface card in it, as well as a floppy
    >> controller.
    >>
    >> -John
    >>
    >>
    >> "Bill H" wrote in message
    >> news:1138997863.366599.228450@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
    >>
    >>>Am curious, did they ever produce a cassette interface for the S-100
    >>>computers to use instead of a floppy controller board and drives?
    >>>
    >>>Was there any routines in CP/M to handle tape i/o?
    >>>
    >>>Bill H www.ts1000.us
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>



+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast