Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128 - CP/M

This is a discussion on Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128 - CP/M ; xlar54 wrote: > As I understand it, CPM differs from computers today in that the BIOS > is actually loaded from disk rather than being in a ROM of some sort. > With the proper source code, the BIOS can ...

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Thread: Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

  1. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128


    xlar54 wrote:
    > As I understand it, CPM differs from computers today in that the BIOS
    > is actually loaded from disk rather than being in a ROM of some sort.
    > With the proper source code, the BIOS can be modified. If this is the
    > case, then there is alot of potential for the C128's version of CPM.
    > Someone stop me if my logic is already flawed.
    >
    > What Im curious in particular about is the age old issue of harddisks
    > for the Commodore machines. I am wondering if the BIOS could be
    > reprogrammed in some way which would allow a CPM 128 machine to
    > communicate easier with a PC harddrive as C: (pick a drive letter), be
    > it through a modem connection, or some other means. If my logic above
    > is correct, then Im assuming that drive letters in CPM are assigned
    > based on whats out there on the serial bus, and that it talks to the
    > CIA chips for this info. Could these routines be modified to talk to
    > other hardware instead, making it somewhat easier to interface with
    > other machines?


    Before starting, I have cross posted this to the CP/M group as they may
    have more input.

    It has been 10 or so years since I did much with CP/M but instead of
    trying to modify the 128 and get a PC hard drive to run on it with the
    CP/M plus that comes with the C128, you may be better off installing a
    version MP/M (networked version of CP/M) on your C128 and then MP/M 86
    on an older PC (8086 or 286). Then you can network them via serial
    ports and access the HD on the older PC as a networked drive.

    Bill H


  2. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    > It has been 10 or so years since I did much with CP/M but instead of
    > trying to modify the 128 and get a PC hard drive to run on it with the
    > CP/M plus that comes with the C128, you may be better off installing a
    > version MP/M (networked version of CP/M) on your C128 and then MP/M 86
    > on an older PC (8086 or 286). Then you can network them via serial
    > ports and access the HD on the older PC as a networked drive.


    Does anyone have a version of MP/M that runs on the 128? I'd
    love to run it!

    Tom Lake



  3. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    Tom Lake wrote:
    > "christianlott1" wrote in message
    > > Interfacing with a pc hd is a hw issue.

    >
    > Yes, but it needs to be recognized by the BIOS, too.


    Which means it's exactly the same amount of work to get it running with
    or without cpm.


  4. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    Its not that you need to get it "recognized" by the BIOS, its that you
    need to extend the BIOS to handle it.

    But you only have to program the device specific parts. Once you get
    it to the level that the BDOS can work with, then the existing CP/M
    utilities can take over.

    And the extension of a CP/M BIOS to cope with a hard drive is likely to
    be able to follow along a fairly well-trodden path.

    christianlott1 wrote:
    > Tom Lake wrote:
    > > "christianlott1" wrote in message
    > > > Interfacing with a pc hd is a hw issue.

    > >
    > > Yes, but it needs to be recognized by the BIOS, too.

    >
    > Which means it's exactly the same amount of work to get it running with
    > or without cpm.



  5. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128


    Thanks for the replies. This is very interesting. Albeit not what
    we'd LIKE to have, but the CPM ability of the 128 is often overlooked,
    yet it seems like it could be useful. Appreciate the links to the code
    as well. In addition, I wonder what other hacks people have come up
    with for the 128 by modding the source code.


  6. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    Though I can't disagree with the truth it is also true that cpm stores
    it's files in a hierarchy, which is bad.

    Maybe cpm supports other file systems? (it IS the file system)

    There is no point. If the app is so important just put it on rom. There
    can't be that many that would both work out of the box on the 128, is
    good, and will tolerate the hd driver hacking easily. Just a guess.

    It's a great idea but why wouldn't you make the driver all purpose (any
    OS can attach) and while you're at it -

    processor neutral
    all routines command language accessible

    ('you' in general)


    Christian


  7. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128


    xlar54 wrote:
    > Thanks for the replies. This is very interesting. Albeit not what
    > we'd LIKE to have, but the CPM ability of the 128 is often overlooked,
    > yet it seems like it could be useful. Appreciate the links to the code
    > as well. In addition, I wonder what other hacks people have come up
    > with for the 128 by modding the source code.



    A>NTIGRAV TOOLKIT'S CP/M PAGE
    http://web.mit.edu/randy/www/antigrav/cpm.html

    The BIOS-R62a/ZPM3/ZCCP Commodore 128 CP/M 3.0+ Upgrade Package
    http://www.devili.iki.fi/pub/Commodo...ery/issue1.txt


  8. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    On 12 Jan 2007 20:04:02 -0800, "xlar54"
    wrote:

    >Thanks for the replies. This is very interesting. Albeit not what
    >we'd LIKE to have, but the CPM ability of the 128 is often overlooked,
    >yet it seems like it could be useful. Appreciate the links to the code
    >as well. In addition, I wonder what other hacks people have come up
    >with for the 128 by modding the source code.


    Never got into Commodores much myself, beyond the Vic-20 my
    daughter noodled around on. Interesting consumer appliance, though.

    Didn't the 128 have a game-cartridge port like the Vic and the -64?
    Could they, did they, make application cartridges, too?

    Anyway, here's an behind the scenes look at getting that CP/M
    you all have been talking about up and running in the first place.....

    http://www.commodore.ca/products/128/Commodore_128.htm

    Just in case somebody missed it.....

    Bill

  9. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    First off you would need a Hard Disk controller of some type. ST506
    interface or IDE, maybe SCSI.

    agila61@netscape.net wrote

    > Its not that you need to get it "recognized" by the BIOS, its that you
    > need to extend the BIOS to handle it.
    >
    > But you only have to program the device specific parts. Once you get
    > it to the level that the BDOS can work with, then the existing CP/M
    > utilities can take over.
    >
    > And the extension of a CP/M BIOS to cope with a hard drive is likely to
    > be able to follow along a fairly well-trodden path.
    >
    > christianlott1 wrote:
    >> Tom Lake wrote:
    >> > "christianlott1" wrote in message
    >> > > Interfacing with a pc hd is a hw issue.
    >> >
    >> > Yes, but it needs to be recognized by the BIOS, too.

    >>
    >> Which means it's exactly the same amount of work to get it running with
    >> or without cpm.

    >



  10. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    You know, if the CP/M had run at the 8MHz dot clock with wait states,
    it would have been a more popular CP/M machine ... but reading that
    account, it probably would not have been ready for the show.


    Bill wrote:
    > On 12 Jan 2007 20:04:02 -0800, "xlar54"
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Thanks for the replies. This is very interesting. Albeit not what
    > >we'd LIKE to have, but the CPM ability of the 128 is often overlooked,
    > >yet it seems like it could be useful. Appreciate the links to the code
    > >as well. In addition, I wonder what other hacks people have come up
    > >with for the 128 by modding the source code.

    >
    > Never got into Commodores much myself, beyond the Vic-20 my
    > daughter noodled around on. Interesting consumer appliance, though.
    >
    > Didn't the 128 have a game-cartridge port like the Vic and the -64?
    > Could they, did they, make application cartridges, too?
    >
    > Anyway, here's an behind the scenes look at getting that CP/M
    > you all have been talking about up and running in the first place.....
    >
    > http://www.commodore.ca/products/128/Commodore_128.htm
    >
    > Just in case somebody missed it.....
    >
    > Bill



  11. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128


    Bruce D wrote:
    > First off you would need a Hard Disk controller of some type. ST506
    > interface or IDE, maybe SCSI.


    But an IDE controller can be as simple as a pair of 16-bit shift
    registers and an 8 bit shift register ... the intelligence is on the
    drive side of the controller.


  12. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    On 12 Jan 2007 11:33:38 -0800, "Bill H" wrote:

    >
    >xlar54 wrote:
    >> As I understand it, CPM differs from computers today in that the BIOS
    >> is actually loaded from disk rather than being in a ROM of some sort.
    >> With the proper source code, the BIOS can be modified. If this is the
    >> case, then there is alot of potential for the C128's version of CPM.
    >> Someone stop me if my logic is already flawed.


    Correct this is how it is on _most_ CP/M machines.

    >> What Im curious in particular about is the age old issue of harddisks
    >> for the Commodore machines. I am wondering if the BIOS could be
    >> reprogrammed in some way which would allow a CPM 128 machine to
    >> communicate easier with a PC harddrive as C: (pick a drive letter), be
    >> it through a modem connection, or some other means. If my logic above
    >> is correct, then Im assuming that drive letters in CPM are assigned
    >> based on whats out there on the serial bus, and that it talks to the
    >> CIA chips for this info. Could these routines be modified to talk to
    >> other hardware instead, making it somewhat easier to interface with
    >> other machines?


    Yes the bios would have to be extended.

    The drive letter assignment is a bios function. It's possible to have
    any drive as any letter A: --> P:.

    How the new drive is connected is a design issue and while it could be
    done with the serial bus I'm sure there are other faster
    interconnects.

    >
    >Before starting, I have cross posted this to the CP/M group as they may
    >have more input.
    >
    >It has been 10 or so years since I did much with CP/M but instead of
    >trying to modify the 128 and get a PC hard drive to run on it with the
    >CP/M plus that comes with the C128, you may be better off installing a
    >version MP/M (networked version of CP/M) on your C128 and then MP/M 86
    >on an older PC (8086 or 286). Then you can network them via serial
    >ports and access the HD on the older PC as a networked drive.


    Also possible but then you have the tasks of getting MPM going and
    then getting the BIOS to handle the IO needed.

    You could just as easily use CP/M and extend the bios to use a
    conventional serial port as DISK IO (may be slow) to a PC emulating a
    disk at the end of a serial line.

    Allison


    >
    >Bill H



  13. Re: Understanding CP/M on the 128

    On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 21:59:45 +0000, no.spam wrote:
    > On 12 Jan 2007 11:33:38 -0800, "Bill H" wrote:
    >>It has been 10 or so years since I did much with CP/M but instead of
    >>trying to modify the 128 and get a PC hard drive to run on it with the
    >>CP/M plus that comes with the C128, you may be better off installing a
    >>version MP/M (networked version of CP/M) on your C128 and then MP/M 86
    >>on an older PC (8086 or 286). Then you can network them via serial
    >>ports and access the HD on the older PC as a networked drive.

    >
    > Also possible but then you have the tasks of getting MPM going and
    > then getting the BIOS to handle the IO needed.


    A networked client system doesn't require MP/M, that's needed on the
    server side, client is fine with CP/M 2 or CP/M 3.

    > You could just as easily use CP/M and extend the bios to use a
    > conventional serial port as DISK IO (may be slow) to a PC emulating a
    > disk at the end of a serial line.


    That's one of the reasons why DRI developed CP/NET, has been done already
    almost 30 years ago and still works.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The fun is building it and then using it.


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