Paradox concerning CP/M-86 - CP/M

This is a discussion on Paradox concerning CP/M-86 - CP/M ; Hello! Sometime ago from one of the places that stores disk images of both CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 I grabbed a disk image of CP/M-86 and followed the enclosed instructions for writing to a floppy, (5-1/4 type), and naturally tried it ...

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

  1. Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    Hello!
    Sometime ago from one of the places that stores disk images of both
    CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 I grabbed a disk image of CP/M-86 and followed the
    enclosed instructions for writing to a floppy, (5-1/4 type), and
    naturally tried it out on the machine I used for writing the disk.

    The disk came up and worked exactly as advertised. It even allowed me
    to accomplish some of the things outlined on the webpages for it.

    The paradox concerning such images is that of hardware, how come I was
    able to do all of that, and with a particular machine, in this case a
    Compaq Portable, no not the luggable one, an honest to entropy for
    real portable machine. And why didn't the original hardware survive if
    not in someone's personal collection.
    ----
    Gregg drwho8@att.net

  2. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    You apparently have a version of CP/M-86 for the IBM-PC, and it will run
    on any PC-clone computer. However, that is not the "generic" CP/M-86
    that was used on non-PC computers, although there are only a couple of
    bytes difference outside of the BIOS (which is massively different).


    Gregg C Levine wrote:
    > Hello!
    > Sometime ago from one of the places that stores disk images of both
    > CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 I grabbed a disk image of CP/M-86 and followed the
    > enclosed instructions for writing to a floppy, (5-1/4 type), and
    > naturally tried it out on the machine I used for writing the disk.
    >
    > The disk came up and worked exactly as advertised. It even allowed me
    > to accomplish some of the things outlined on the webpages for it.
    >
    > The paradox concerning such images is that of hardware, how come I was
    > able to do all of that, and with a particular machine, in this case a
    > Compaq Portable, no not the luggable one, an honest to entropy for
    > real portable machine. And why didn't the original hardware survive if
    > not in someone's personal collection.
    > ----
    > Gregg drwho8@att.net


  3. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 23:01:09 -0400, Barry Watzman
    wrote:

    >You apparently have a version of CP/M-86 for the IBM-PC, and it will run
    >on any PC-clone computer. However, that is not the "generic" CP/M-86
    >that was used on non-PC computers, although there are only a couple of
    >bytes difference outside of the BIOS (which is massively different).
    >
    >
    >Gregg C Levine wrote:
    >> Hello!
    >> Sometime ago from one of the places that stores disk images of both
    >> CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 I grabbed a disk image of CP/M-86 and followed the
    >> enclosed instructions for writing to a floppy, (5-1/4 type), and
    >> naturally tried it out on the machine I used for writing the disk.
    >>
    >> The disk came up and worked exactly as advertised. It even allowed me
    >> to accomplish some of the things outlined on the webpages for it.
    >>
    >> The paradox concerning such images is that of hardware, how come I was
    >> able to do all of that, and with a particular machine, in this case a
    >> Compaq Portable, no not the luggable one, an honest to entropy for
    >> real portable machine. And why didn't the original hardware survive if
    >> not in someone's personal collection.
    >> ----
    >> Gregg drwho8@att.net


    Hello!
    Correct! It was originally generated for the Eagle, I believe it was.
    I've managed to lose that image, but I believe I recall where it was
    last seen. However I do believe you are quite correct on those
    details. It would be interesting to track down the specific image,
    that one that most definitely won't boot on an IBM-PC clone type
    system, but would boot on practically everything else.

    In fact I recall seeing an HP-85, wearing a cartridge on its back that
    was branded as a CP/M cartridge for it. But that was many years
    earlier, and I've yet to even see one of those old fellows for sale
    anywhere, and in working condition.
    ---
    Gregg drwho8@att.net

  4. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86



    "Gregg C Levine" wrote in message
    news:ah1n34t49coq215ds148u97tokke4a441t@4ax.com...
    > On Mon, 26 May 2008 23:01:09 -0400, Barry Watzman
    > wrote:


    > In fact I recall seeing an HP-85, wearing a cartridge on its back that
    > was branded as a CP/M cartridge for it. But that was many years
    > earlier, and I've yet to even see one of those old fellows for sale
    > anywhere, and in working condition.


    Working 85's are on eBay monthly and the CP/M cartridge turns up
    once or twice a year (it may be the same one every year!).

    Tom Lake


  5. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    Gregg C Levine wrote:

    > >> The paradox concerning such images is that of hardware, how come I was
    > >> able to do all of that, and with a particular machine, in this case a
    > >> Compaq Portable, no not the luggable one, an honest to entropy for
    > >> real portable machine. And why didn't the original hardware survive if
    > >> not in someone's personal collection.


    >. It would be interesting to track down the specific image,
    > that one that most definitely won't boot on an IBM-PC clone type
    > system, but would boot on practically everything else.
    >
    > In fact I recall seeing an HP-85,...


    Sorry, but what is your question? What is the "paradox"? Please
    describe exactly what you find odd or paradoxial. (And the HP-85 does
    not have an 8086 processor, so CP/M -86 will not run on that.)

    If you are sugesting there is a "magic" CP/M-86 which will boot on
    "everything", that is not a paradox because that is not "true". Every
    CP/M, 8080 or 8086 based, requires a BIOS which is specific to ONE set
    of hardware. A specific serial port, a specific floppy disk
    controller, down to specific addresses and bits.

    So called "PC compatible" computers, made for MS-DOS in the 1980's,
    put their BIOS into a ROM chip, and tried to isolate all hardware
    differences there, so the OS need only talk to the BIOS and not
    hardware. That did not last as a solution and hardware became
    standardized around total "IBM PC compatibility", hence the term
    "clone".

    All that is a long way from CP/M. If that is your "paradox", it's
    simply a matter of history, and how an OS works with hardware. Please
    describe your question, maybe you have some other "paradox" in mind.
    More information will produce a better response, maybe you can resolve
    the paradox yourself.

    Herb Johnson
    retrotechnology.com

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"

  6. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    Gregg C Levine wrote in
    news:ah1n34t49coq215ds148u97tokke4a441t@4ax.com:

    > I've managed to lose that image, but I believe I recall where it was
    > last seen.


    Would you mind posting a link to it if possible?

  7. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On 28 May 2008 17:51:17 GMT, elaich wrote:

    >Gregg C Levine wrote in
    >news:ah1n34t49coq215ds148u97tokke4a441t@4ax.com:
    >
    >> I've managed to lose that image, but I believe I recall where it was
    >> last seen.

    >
    >Would you mind posting a link to it if possible?


    Hello!
    Sure if I could remember exactly where that is. I think(!!) it is
    someplace on the normally suggested website for everything related to
    CP/M, and MP/M that surfaces with regards to the SIMH emulators.
    --
    Gregg drwho8@att.net

  8. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On 27 May, 04:59, Gregg C Levine wrote:
    > In fact I recall seeing an HP-85, wearing a cartridge on its back that
    > was branded as a CP/M cartridge for it. But that was many years
    > earlier, and I've yet to even see one of those old fellows for sale
    > anywhere, and in working condition.
    > ---
    > Gregg drw...@att.net


    Hi,
    I don't know why you mention the HP-85, anyway as I am a fan let me
    correct you. Their is an HP CP/M cartridge (they called it a module)
    that fits in the back of the machine. However, it only works in the
    HP-86 or HP-87, which had a better Basic and more RAM. The CP/M
    cartridge contains a Z80 and 64K of RAM. It was supplied with CP/M
    2.2, and only a few applications were ported to it. The disk format is
    custom (I think as far as the HP-86 goes the disk contains 1 file
    which is used as virtual disk by the Z80), and their is no serial
    interface either.

    I have a working HP-87 based CP/M system:

    http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p151/john-a-s/HP-87/

    I once listed it on eBay for 100 but got no bids, and yes its still
    sale :-)

    Regars,
    John

  9. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On May 29, 6:42*pm, m...@privacy.net (Freek Heite) wrote:
    > Gregg C Levine wrote:
    >
    > >> ... the normally suggested website for everything related to CP/M

    >
    > That must be Gaby's website!
    > And yes, indeed, CP/M-86 for the Eagle can be found onhttp://www.cpm.z80.de/binary.html
    >
    > I once tried this CP/M-86 implementation, and it seemed to work well
    > om my Dell desktop. Probably this Eagle machine was quite a good
    > IBM PC clone.
    >
    > Have fun,
    > Freek.
    >
    > email: f.heite ATT hccnet DOTT nl


    On Gaby's site, why is there a CP/M 86 emulator that will run on CP/M
    86? Is this a mistake or ?

    EMULATORS for CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 : 39K This package contains a CP/
    M-86 emulator which will run on MS-DOS/PC-DOS or CP/M-86. It also
    contains a Z80 emulator that will run on CP/M-86.

    Bill H

  10. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    Gregg C Levine wrote:
    >> ... the normally suggested website for everything related to CP/M


    That must be Gaby's website!
    And yes, indeed, CP/M-86 for the Eagle can be found on
    http://www.cpm.z80.de/binary.html

    I once tried this CP/M-86 implementation, and it seemed to work well
    om my Dell desktop. Probably this Eagle machine was quite a good
    IBM PC clone.

    Have fun,
    Freek.

    email: f.heite ATT hccnet DOTT nl

  11. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On May 29, 5:42*pm, m...@privacy.net (Freek Heite) wrote:
    > Gregg C Levine wrote:
    >
    > >> ... the normally suggested website for everything related to CP/M

    >
    > That must be Gaby's website!
    > And yes, indeed, CP/M-86 for the Eagle can be found onhttp://www.cpm.z80.de/binary.html
    >
    > I once tried this CP/M-86 implementation, and it seemed to work well
    > om my Dell desktop. Probably this Eagle machine was quite a good
    > IBM PC clone.
    >
    > Have fun,
    > Freek.
    >
    > email: f.heite ATT hccnet DOTT nl


    Thanks Freek, for pointing that out. I had assumed this image was
    'Eagle' specific.
    I found a couple of 3 1/2 720k floppies and wrote those images to
    them, as 360k, with CopyQM last night, booted fine on the ol' 486.
    This version doesn't require the AT-Patch. No GSX, some source files
    and utilities on disk2 instead.

    Steve

  12. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    John wrote:
    > I have a working HP-87 based CP/M system:
    >
    > http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p151/john-a-s/HP-87/
    >
    > I once listed it on eBay for 100 but got no bids, and yes its still
    > sale :-)
    >
    > Regars,
    > John


    Gregg/John, This is way OT, but I used to be the Asia Pacific repair
    droid for HP calcs in Australia (well, most of the 4x and 8x series and
    100/200LX palmtops and Omnibooks, basically all the computer-sized calcs
    and calc-sized computers), and I reckon the fact you guys have kept any
    of the beasts alive and kicking is amazing!

    I used to live in abject fear of the disk drives and most especially the
    damn cartridge tape readers. They'd go out of alignment with temperature
    changes as the mechanisms aged, causing slow tape feed skew. The IEEE488
    interface in particular was a nightmare to fix so it would pass NATA cal
    requirements. Since our NATA cal fixture was driven by 2 87s, it was
    always a bit hectic when the 2 reference 87's got scramble/fried/locked
    up, and they always seemed to go out together - different faults, but
    every bloody time one went bang, the other would go bang too. Sympathy I
    guess Still, I learned a heck of a lot about the IEEE488 protocol.
    Not that it's done me much good since!

    But then again, it was a LOT of fun at the time...

    --
    --
    "I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandpa, not screaming
    and crying, like the passengers in his car." -Unremembered source from
    the (19)90's.

  13. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On 2008-07-22, PC Pete wrote:
    > Still, I learned a heck of a lot about the IEEE488 protocol.


    You have my sympathies. I once did the on-board firmware and device driver
    for a VAXBI quad IEEE-488 interface. It was a Z80 with four NEC 7210s.
    It 'bout killed me.

    Merging slightly towards topical, development was done on the CP/M side
    of a DECmate II using M80 and L80. When things got a bit big for L80 to
    deal with, I gave SLRNK+ a try, but it kept making mistakes linking the
    system so I wound up arguing with L80 to make it link. I don't recall
    the details of the mistake, but I've not trusted SLRNK since.

    The source code was large enough that the DECmate II didn't have enough
    directory entries on the hard disk to hold the sources, listings, and all
    the object files. I kept the sources on six RX50s and would cycle through
    them on assembly (I could keep the listings and object files on the hard
    drive, just not them all *and* the sources). As M80 was assembling from
    one drive, I'd change the disks in the next. I had a big SUBMIT file that
    orchestrated the assembly and had to write a little program to reset the
    disks when it changed drives.

    In addition to the four 7210s, the VAXBI board had a couple of UARTS and
    an STD bus. For debugging, I booted CP/M on it and used ZSID. For a
    large part of the debug effort, I used a second board to generate VAXBI
    traffic.

    Which means that I had a VAXBI CP/M system.

    During some of my previous work, I had fallen in love with the DR780, so
    I designed the firmware such that the on-board Z80 would look things up
    in the VAX page table to perform virtual-to-physical translations. That
    worked until they changed the page table format to allow VAXen to have
    more than 512MB of RAM. But by that time, the hardware was no longer
    being built, so I never had to update the firmware to support the new
    page table format.

    The Z80 also used self-relative doubly-linked queues (supported by VAX
    instructions) to communicate with the VAX.

    Good times. But, like I said, it 'bout killed me.

    And I still think the DR780 was cool.
    --
    roger ivie
    rivie@ridgenet.net

  14. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    >> Still, I learned a heck of a lot about the IEEE488 protocol.

    I never got to handle that,
    but it looks really well defined on the bus level.
    I never even found surplus equipment with that interface.

    >You have my sympathies. I once did the on-board firmware and device driver
    >for a VAXBI quad IEEE-488 interface. It was a Z80 with four NEC 7210s.
    >It 'bout killed me.


    But it sounds like a rather worthy challenge where you succeeded

    >Merging slightly towards topical, development was done on the CP/M side
    >of a DECmate II using M80 and L80. When things got a bit big for L80 to
    >deal with, I gave SLRNK+ a try, but it kept making mistakes linking the
    >system so I wound up arguing with L80 to make it link. I don't recall
    >the details of the mistake, but I've not trusted SLRNK since.


    Wow, that brings back bad memories of severe compiler and
    disk space limitations.

    >The source code was large enough that the DECmate II didn't have enough
    >directory entries on the hard disk to hold the sources, listings, and all
    >the object files. I kept the sources on six RX50s and would cycle through
    >them on assembly (I could keep the listings and object files on the hard
    >drive, just not them all *and* the sources). As M80 was assembling from
    >one drive, I'd change the disks in the next. I had a big SUBMIT file that
    >orchestrated the assembly and had to write a little program to reset the
    >disks when it changed drives.


    Clever workaround for such a tedious task!
    My frustration was the immense gap between Z80 compilers
    and the Unix tools of the time (late 70s).
    After using Unix, it was tedious (at best)
    going back to anything "less".
    But at one job I had to use a cross-development environment
    since the target CPU was execute-only.
    No self supporting development (or debugging) tools.
    It was preparing me for embedded processing :-/

    That's one appeal CP/M has for me:
    the Z80 system can work totally stand-alone for development
    even if it's a single board embedded system when running just the app.

    >In addition to the four 7210s, the VAXBI board had a couple of UARTS and
    >an STD bus. For debugging, I booted CP/M on it and used ZSID. For a
    >large part of the debug effort, I used a second board to generate VAXBI
    >traffic.


    Wow, what memories. I barely touched
    STD bus and salvaged some bits and pieces.
    It looked nice on paper but I'm unsure how to resurrect it.

    >Which means that I had a VAXBI CP/M system.


    >During some of my previous work, I had fallen in love with the DR780, so
    >I designed the firmware such that the on-board Z80 would look things up
    >in the VAX page table to perform virtual-to-physical translations. That
    >worked until they changed the page table format to allow VAXen to have
    >more than 512MB of RAM. But by that time, the hardware was no longer
    >being built, so I never had to update the firmware to support the new
    >page table format.


    >The Z80 also used self-relative doubly-linked queues (supported by VAX
    >instructions) to communicate with the VAX.


    That sounds EXTREMELY clever.
    It must've been very nice to use once completed.

    I wrote a Unix & Solaris sync serial device driver
    but the device driver did all the
    virtual-to-physical address translation.
    Concurrent Computer Corp's Real Time Unix had a lot of support
    for direct interfacing to peripherals
    such as giving it the physical memory addresses,
    allocating contiguous memory and disk sectors.

    >Good times. But, like I said, it 'bout killed me.


    It sounds like the Unix DKI/DDI (device kernel interface)
    was developed later to preserve others' sanity.

    >And I still think the DR780 was cool.


    It sounds it.

    >roger ivie


    -- Jeffrey Jonas
    jeffj@panix(dot)com
    The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide

  15. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On 2008-07-23, Jeff Jonas wrote:
    > Wow, that brings back bad memories of severe compiler and
    > disk space limitations.


    Funny thing is, I've never actually filled a CP/M hard disk. I've run
    out of directory entries on a few occasions, but haven't ever run out of
    *space*.

    > Clever workaround for such a tedious task!
    > My frustration was the immense gap between Z80 compilers
    > and the Unix tools of the time (late 70s).


    First time I encountered Unix was the mid-90s. VMS was easier for me to
    get a handle on because we did a lot of work for DEC, so it was easy
    for us to get our hands on the microfiche listings.

    Since I never encountered Unix at school, I didn't have access to Unix
    sources until Net/2. And the Unix I was using (Ultrix on MIPS) was
    older, so Net/2 didn't help a whole lot.
    --
    roger ivie
    rivie@ridgenet.net

  16. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    >> Wow, that brings back bad memories of severe compiler and
    >> disk space limitations.


    > Funny thing is, I've never actually filled a CP/M hard disk. I've run
    > out of directory entries on a few occasions,
    > but haven't ever run out of *space*.


    Wow, that topic came up just a week ago:
    a friend was loading songs to his MP3 player
    and seems to have hit the directory limit
    before filling the memory.

    >> Clever workaround for such a tedious task!
    >> My frustration was the immense gap between Z80 compilers
    >> and the Unix tools of the time (late 70s).


    > First time I encountered Unix was the mid-90s.


    September will be my 30th anniv of being a Unix User.
    Sept 1978 I entered The Cooper Union school of engineering
    and used Unix version 6 on the PDP11/45.
    It served me well since I consulted to AT&T Information Systems
    for many years.

    > Since I never encountered Unix at school,
    > I didn't have access to Unix sources until Net/2.
    > And the Unix I was using (Ultrix on MIPS) was older,
    > so Net/2 didn't help a whole lot.


    I've used several "dialects" of Unix
    such as AIX, OSF/1, Ultrix, etc.

    I enjoy these topics since it makes me imagine
    "what if I had used system ___ instead of ___"
    and all the changes it would've caused in careers,
    where I lived, who I'd have met, etc.

  17. Re: Paradox concerning CP/M-86

    On 2008-07-23, Jeff Jonas wrote:
    > Wow, that topic came up just a week ago:
    > a friend was loading songs to his MP3 player
    > and seems to have hit the directory limit
    > before filling the memory.


    Yeah, FAT is limited to 512 entries in the root directory. The trick is to
    put all the songs in a subdirectory.

    >> First time I encountered Unix was the mid-90s.

    >
    > September will be my 30th anniv of being a Unix User.


    Next month will the 25th anniversary of my first VMS device driver.
    --
    roger ivie
    rivie@ridgenet.net

+ Reply to Thread