Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine - CP/M

This is a discussion on Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine - CP/M ; On Thu, 01 May 2008 01:26:16 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: >A lot of different things are being confused here. > >86-DOS did not run on a PC, it ran on S-100 systems. So any references >to "BIOS" would be to ...

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Thread: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

  1. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    On Thu, 01 May 2008 01:26:16 -0400, Barry Watzman
    wrote:

    >A lot of different things are being confused here.
    >
    >86-DOS did not run on a PC, it ran on S-100 systems. So any references
    >to "BIOS" would be to a disk-based BIOS, not to a ROM bios (on a PC or
    >any other machine,


    Not really accurate. First off, the bus means essentially nothing, as
    software isn't gonna care where or what it is. The Seattle Computer
    boards system used a ROM BIOS/Monitor that got the CPU awake
    and running, along with several 'monitor' functions, really little
    apps which just happen to be useful even if you don't (yet) have
    disk drives attached or running.

    > although there would likely be some type of "boot
    >code" in any machine).


    Unless it had a front panel and you wanted to key in a boot routine

    Most pre-IBM PC computers light up the 'console' and ask what
    drive you want to boot from, or even IF you want to boot, or to 'hit
    enter' or things like that. Call this the 'boot' function - get the
    boot device going. Usually, a floppy drive. Hard drives were
    uncommon at that time.

    But it was also common to have other functions in that ROM.
    The most frequent was probably a memory test of some sort.

    Anyway, the purpose of the hardware BIOS (stored in a ROM) was
    also to more or less 'define' how operating systems were supposed
    to talk to the actual hardware. Most had a jump table that looked
    a lot like the table in CP/Ms BDOS. If you wanna do THIS, then
    jump THERE (return address previously pushed onto the stack
    by a CALL from within the operating system)

    Bill

  2. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    You don't need the SCP bios. All it did was boot the disk controller.

    You also don't need Tarbell CP/M. The Tarbell DD disk controller was
    just a Western Digital 179x FDC (the board could be operated in either
    of 2 modes, programmed data transfer, or DMA using an onboard 8257, but
    DMA and using the 8257 was optional).

    What you will have to do is get a disk image, then replace the BIOS in
    the disk image with one that does appropriate I/O (both console and
    disk) for the simulator. Since source code for the BIOS was distributed
    on the distribution disk, along with instructions for integrating a new
    BIOS into the system, this should not be that difficult.

    I am not volunteering to do this, but one way that the image could be
    obtained:

    1. Get suitable disk imaging software that run on a Zenith Z-100 under
    Z-DOS (MS-DOS). Ideally, the Z-100 should have both 5" and 8" drives,
    and a hard drive. Put the imaging software and MS-DOS on the hard
    drive. [I suggest the Z-100 because it has a hard drive, 5.25" floppy
    drive(s) and 8" floppy drive(s) and it runs a version of MS-DOS that is
    media compatible with a standard PC].

    2. Put a blank (formatted) MS-DOS 5.25" floppy into the Z-100's 5.25"
    drive.

    3. Put the SCP 86-DOS disk into the Z-100's 8" drive

    4. Run the image software, image the SCP 8" diskette to an image file
    on the 5.25" diskette (the SCP disks were SSSD, and the 5.25" disks are
    standard PC format 360k 5.25" diskettes which are of course larger than
    a SSSD 8" floppy disk).

    5. Take the 5.25" disk, which is standard MS-DOS format, put it in a PC
    with a 5.25" drive and the image now belongs to "the modern world" and
    you can E-Mail it, post it online or whatever.

    6. Again, I'm not volunteering (indeed I have some very selfish reasons
    for actually not wanting this to happen), but I actually have everything
    except the imaging software (and I may have that ... I do have Teledisk,
    although I've never used it).


    hharte@hartetec.com wrote:
    > On Apr 30, 10:26 pm, Barry Watzman wrote:
    >> A lot of different things are being confused here.
    >>
    >> 86-DOS did not run on a PC, it ran on S-100 systems. So any references
    >> to "BIOS" would be to a disk-based BIOS, not to a ROM bios (on a PC or
    >> any other machine, although there would likely be some type of "boot
    >> code" in any machine).
    >>
    >> Conversely, on a PC, there is a BIOS on the motherboard, and the
    >> listings of that for the IBM-PC, PC-XT and PC-AT were published by IBM
    >> and are in the manuals. I would assume (but don't know for a fact) that
    >> you can find those online, but they won't help you with 86-DOS, in fact
    >> they are completely irrelevant.
    >>
    >> Robert J. Stevens wrote:
    >>> hha...@hartetec.com wrote:
    >>>> On Apr 29, 8:20 am, Bill wrote:
    >>>> snipped I don't know much
    >>>> about modern BIOSes, but the source for the IBM PC BIOS is in the IBM
    >>>> Technical Reference Manual.
    >>> Does anyone have a scan of the Manual.
    >>> I would like to get the Listing for the IBM PC BIOS
    >>> Also interested in where on

    > the floppy the BIOS is stored on the early
    >>> Implementations of 86-DOS and SCP-DOS and MS-DOS2.0
    >>> TIA
    >>> Bob in Wisconsin

    >
    > So, to simuulate 86-DOS in SIMH, we are missing a few things:
    >
    > 1. Most importantly, an 86-DOS disk image
    > 2. The SCP ROM (probably not critical)
    > 3. Tarbell CP/M disk image to get the simulated disk controller
    > working) also not critical, but would be extremely helpful.
    >
    > Any volunteers to make an 86-DOS disk image using Dave Dunfield's
    > ImageDisk tools?
    >
    > It is amazing to me that 86-DOS has not been run in simulation given
    > its historical significance.
    >


  3. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    True, the bus is irrelevant, but I don't believe that the BIOS of 86-DOS
    used the SCP Monitor ROM once it was booted. This is from memory, and I
    could be wrong, but that is my recollection.

    I think that the only thing that the monitor did was boot the disk drive
    from the supported disk controller, and many of the controllers had
    their own capability to do that independent of the monitor.

    By the time 86-DOS came out, most "PCs" (S-100 systems) did NOT have
    front panels. And in fact the only common front panels were on Altair
    and IMSAI machines, and those could NOT be used in an 86-DOS system
    because they were 16-bit only hardware, and limited the entire bus to
    16-bit use, while 86-DOS required that the hardware support a 20-bit
    address bus.


    Bill wrote:
    > On Thu, 01 May 2008 01:26:16 -0400, Barry Watzman
    > wrote:
    >
    >> A lot of different things are being confused here.
    >>
    >> 86-DOS did not run on a PC, it ran on S-100 systems. So any references
    >> to "BIOS" would be to a disk-based BIOS, not to a ROM bios (on a PC or
    >> any other machine,

    >
    > Not really accurate. First off, the bus means essentially nothing, as
    > software isn't gonna care where or what it is. The Seattle Computer
    > boards system used a ROM BIOS/Monitor that got the CPU awake
    > and running, along with several 'monitor' functions, really little
    > apps which just happen to be useful even if you don't (yet) have
    > disk drives attached or running.
    >
    >> although there would likely be some type of "boot
    >> code" in any machine).

    >
    > Unless it had a front panel and you wanted to key in a boot routine
    >
    > Most pre-IBM PC computers light up the 'console' and ask what
    > drive you want to boot from, or even IF you want to boot, or to 'hit
    > enter' or things like that. Call this the 'boot' function - get the
    > boot device going. Usually, a floppy drive. Hard drives were
    > uncommon at that time.
    >
    > But it was also common to have other functions in that ROM.
    > The most frequent was probably a memory test of some sort.
    >
    > Anyway, the purpose of the hardware BIOS (stored in a ROM) was
    > also to more or less 'define' how operating systems were supposed
    > to talk to the actual hardware. Most had a jump table that looked
    > a lot like the table in CP/Ms BDOS. If you wanna do THIS, then
    > jump THERE (return address previously pushed onto the stack
    > by a CALL from within the operating system)
    >
    > Bill


  4. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    datapackrat wrote:
    > Does anyone have a disk image for SCP 86DOS? Bill
    >

    I was able to make copies of the SCP 86Dos SSSD Files on SSSD 8" floppies.
    I checked them with DUTIL and they look good even tho I can't read them
    Under CP/M
    If anyone who might want to make a Disk Image from them can send me a
    GOOD SSSD 8" floppy I can make another copy.
    Looks like its for a Cromemco system however.
    Bob in Wisconsin
    USE
    trebor72@execpc.com
    > "Robert J. Stevens" wrote in message
    > news:CrqdnSrb3Kwxv5LVnZ2dnUVZ_ovinZ2d@choiceonecom munications...
    >
    >> Has anyone been able to get SCP's 86-Dos Running on any Machine at all
    >> TIA
    >> Bob in Wisconsin
    >> USE
    >> trebor72@execpc.com


  5. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    "Barry Watzman" wrote in message
    news:48195380$0$5722$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    > Re: "the SCP "CPU Support Board" manual is scanned and on-line"
    >
    > Indeed; I believe I was the one who scanned it.
    >
    > The disks that I have are for the Tarbell double density board, but I
    > believe that the CompuPro Disk 1 and the Cromemco 16FDC were also
    > offered, and possibly [likely] others.
    >
    > It's possible that there was a listing of the ROM monitor that was in
    > the CPU support card in some of the SCP documentation (in fact I'm
    > pretty sure that there was, because I modified it, which means that I
    > had source code). If so, I probably have it .... somewhere. [Actually,
    > I think that the source code may have been on the 86-DOS distribution
    > disks.]


    I should check this newgroup more often...

    Being an "old fogie", I started using SCP 86-Dos back at version 0.10
    (serial #11). When they used 16-byte directory entries (you don't want
    to know the problems people encountered when they went to32-byte
    directory entries).

    Yes, there was a ROM monitor on the support board. I still have the source,
    and the SCP 86-Dos assembler to go with it.

    The "Bios" was more like a driver, where you wrote the low-level stuff to
    make the system calls (like INT 25H / INT 26H disk read/write, INT 21H
    AH=1 get key, INT 21H AH=2 write character) actually talk to the hardware.
    86-Dos generously allocated 1K (1024 bytes) for this. Good luck if you
    needed
    more...

    I was running the CPU, support board, 4 16K RAM boards (very expensive...),
    Cromemco 4FDC controller, parallel port keyboard and a (mumble) memory
    mapped
    video board.

    In the years since then, I work for an anti-virus company, and have
    disassembled and
    analyzed several thousand computer viruses. I still have my tools, too...

    So, if someone can post a disk image, I can probably get it running.

    Bill




  6. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    datapackrat wrote:
    > "Barry Watzman" wrote in message
    > news:48195380$0$5722$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    >
    > snipped
    > I should check this newgroup more often...
    >
    > Being an "old fogie", I started using SCP 86-Dos back at version 0.10
    > (serial #11). snipped
    > I was running the CPU, support board, 4 16K RAM boards (very expensive...),
    > Cromemco 4FDC controller, parallel port keyboard and a (mumble) memory
    > mapped
    > video board.
    >
    > snipped
    >
    > So, if someone can post a disk image, I can probably get it running.
    >

    Bill;
    Would a copy of the 8" Floppy do any good.
    I was able to get some good copies using DUTIL and other programs on my CompuPro 8-16 system.
    I can't put the 8" to a 5.25 since I can't read the Directory.
    Bob in Wisconsin
    USE
    trebor72@execpc.com


  7. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    Robert J. Stevens wrote:
    > datapackrat wrote:
    >> "Barry Watzman" wrote in message
    >> news:48195380$0$5722$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    >> snipped
    >> I should check this newgroup more often...
    >>
    >> Being an "old fogie", I started using SCP 86-Dos back at version 0.10
    >> (serial #11). snipped
    >> I was running the CPU, support board, 4 16K RAM boards (very
    >> expensive...),
    >> Cromemco 4FDC controller, parallel port keyboard and a (mumble) memory
    >> mapped
    >> video board.
    >>
    >> snipped
    >>
    >> So, if someone can post a disk image, I can probably get it running.
    >>

    > Bill; Would a copy of the 8" Floppy do any good.
    > I was able to get some good copies using DUTIL and other programs on
    > my CompuPro 8-16 system.
    > I can't put the 8" to a 5.25 since I can't read the Directory.
    > Bob in Wisconsin
    > USE
    > trebor72@execpc.com
    >

    I just re-Checked with DUF05 and the Floppy is for SCP 86-DOS Version
    1.00 dated 1981
    The floppy is Skewed at four but if Some one has a program that will
    read a 8" floppy as DOS and write to a CPM 8" floppy the files may be
    extracted
    Bob

  8. Re: Has anyone got SCP 86-Dos Running on any Machine

    "Robert J. Stevens" wrote in message
    news:fvudnfEIe_-7k4LVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@choiceonecommunications...

    > > Bill; Would a copy of the 8" Floppy do any good.
    > > I was able to get some good copies using DUTIL and other programs on
    > > my CompuPro 8-16 system.
    > > I can't put the 8" to a 5.25 since I can't read the Directory.
    > > Bob in Wisconsin
    > > USE
    > > trebor72@execpc.com
    > >

    > I just re-Checked with DUF05 and the Floppy is for SCP 86-DOS Version
    > 1.00 dated 1981
    > The floppy is Skewed at four but if Some one has a program that will
    > read a 8" floppy as DOS and write to a CPM 8" floppy the files may be
    > extracted


    I do not need or want a physical 8" floppy (I have no way to read it).

    What I need is a dump of the floppy, with heads (assume 1), cyls, sectors,
    and skew (if not 1) (you'll have to forgive me if I don't remember the media
    byte mapping from the top of my head). From there, I can set up a "virtual
    disk" to extract files, and should be able to get 86-Dos running from the
    virtual
    disk. With some luck, I should even be able to get 86-Dos running from
    "modern" media, like a 3.5" floppy.

    Bill




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