Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project - CP/M

This is a discussion on Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project - CP/M ; Show of hands....how many folks would be interested in an IDE interface for the Kaypro 10/83 and 10/84? Possibly also the 4/84, 2/84, "New 2", 2x, and Kaypro 1? If you have the same problem as I do, MFM drives ...

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Thread: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

  1. Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    Show of hands....how many folks would be interested in an IDE interface
    for the Kaypro 10/83 and 10/84? Possibly also the 4/84, 2/84, "New 2",
    2x, and Kaypro 1?

    If you have the same problem as I do, MFM drives are:
    1) Getting scarce
    2) getting expensive
    3) Refer to #2 - AND untested/unwarranted/As-Is
    4) refer to #3

    Seriously - checked out prices on used, unwarranted, untested MFM drives
    on eBay and on the web? Choices are slim, and it's a waste to have to
    spend $50-100 on a 20-60MB MFM drive, that may work for a week, if
    you're lucky to get one that's not DOA!

    So... putting my head together with someone else, I have come up with a
    Desired Feature list:
    Autoboot from ROM - no floppy-booting
    Both 44-pin laptop and 40-pin standard IDE interfaces
    (if possible)Compact flash support for using CF instead of HD's
    Replacement ROM based on Kaypro 1.9E firmware

    More than likely, in this ROM, MFM support will be dropped to simplify
    things, but that shouldn;t be a big loss. For non Kaypro 10's, this
    shouldn't be an issue at all!

    Price goal is to be around $100 for the kit which would include:
    * a complete kit for the GIDE interface
    * a replacement EPROM with a modified Kaypro 1.9E firmware for the 10
    (should work on the others, as well)
    * proper CP/M software (hopefully bootable floppy images downloadable)
    either downloaded or on disks.

    Kits can be pre-built and tested for about an estimated $50 fee

    I have someone else involved, but don't want to overwhelm him with
    questions. He is known, though, from other relatively recent projects.
    I guess if he doesn't mind, I can say, but I haven't his permission yet,
    as he is still perusing the source code.

    We will also possibly be offering a bundle, with an HP KittyHawk 1.3"
    20MB IDE drive, pre-loaded, and ready to install-and-go.

    The following are planned to definitely be supported:
    Kaypro 10/83
    Kaypro 10/84

    The follwing are "pretty sure they should work - shared motherboards":
    Kaypro 4/84
    Kaypro 2/84
    Kaypro 1

    Following are "maybe's", but I have them to test with:
    Kaypro 2x

    Nothing will be mentioned as supported, until properly tested, and we
    have ALL the above systems to test with. Thankfully, for the most part,
    later Kaypros were basically a shared-platform motherboard, and had
    options like modem/RTC/WD1002 interface added or not, as needed.

    Let me know if this piques your interest.


    Tony
    sharkonwheels -at- g|\/|ail.com

  2. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:25:45 GMT, Tony
    wrote:

    >Show of hands....how many folks would be interested in an IDE interface
    >for the Kaypro 10/83 and 10/84? Possibly also the 4/84, 2/84, "New 2",
    >2x, and Kaypro 1?
    >
    >If you have the same problem as I do, MFM drives are:
    >1) Getting scarce
    >2) getting expensive
    >3) Refer to #2 - AND untested/unwarranted/As-Is
    >4) refer to #3


    I'd be interested in it for K2 or 4/84 as I have both.

    My 4-84 has Advent TurboRom, 3.5" floppies (enabled with Advent disk
    personality board) and Advent Ramdisk 1MB. Also ROM based
    HandyMan with RTC. So it's fairly loaded, likely an extreme machine.


    >Seriously - checked out prices on used, unwarranted, untested MFM drives
    >on eBay and on the web? Choices are slim, and it's a waste to have to
    >spend $50-100 on a 20-60MB MFM drive, that may work for a week, if
    >you're lucky to get one that's not DOA!


    Yes, shipping them is tricky at ebst as they must be shock packed very
    well. Also some drive are not so good even in there day. the only
    ones I know to generally be good to excellent are ST225 and Quantum
    D540s. I have a few (more than 5 each in use) that have been in use
    for 10 years or more than seem unstopable and they were not new when I
    got them. But try and find them now, and the 540 is full height and
    34watts!

    >So... putting my head together with someone else, I have come up with a
    >Desired Feature list:
    >Autoboot from ROM - no floppy-booting
    >Both 44-pin laptop and 40-pin standard IDE interfaces
    >(if possible)Compact flash support for using CF instead of HD's
    >Replacement ROM based on Kaypro 1.9E firmware


    You might consider IDE like AKA CF for the following reasons.

    CF does 8bit mode, much less hardware needed for a trivial interface
    to Z80.
    CF cards new 9.95$US for 32MB enough for any CP/M machine.
    A 32MB CF gives four 8mb logical drives and they can be
    bootable.
    CF cards are LBA addressable making the BIOS simpler. However
    deblocking is needed as sectors are 512 bytes.
    CF cards use less power and those Kaypros that didn't have hard
    disk may have fewer power supply issues.
    CF is shock proof, you can drop them.

    >More than likely, in this ROM, MFM support will be dropped to simplify
    >things, but that shouldn;t be a big loss. For non Kaypro 10's, this
    >shouldn't be an issue at all!
    >
    >Price goal is to be around $100 for the kit which would include:
    >* a complete kit for the GIDE interface
    >* a replacement EPROM with a modified Kaypro 1.9E firmware for the 10
    >(should work on the others, as well)
    >* proper CP/M software (hopefully bootable floppy images downloadable)
    >either downloaded or on disks.


    It can be far less if you drop conventional IDE as that requires more
    hardware and software support for varied drives that may be used.

    IF done with CF a kit consisting of assembled board, cables and
    32mb CF and instructions complete could be under 100$.

    >Kits can be pre-built and tested for about an estimated $50 fee


    Sane idea, many cannot solder or do not have facilities for fine work.

    >I have someone else involved, but don't want to overwhelm him with
    >questions. He is known, though, from other relatively recent projects.
    >I guess if he doesn't mind, I can say, but I haven't his permission yet,
    >as he is still perusing the source code.
    >
    >We will also possibly be offering a bundle, with an HP KittyHawk 1.3"
    >20MB IDE drive, pre-loaded, and ready to install-and-go.


    If your going conventional IDE do that.

    One of the GIDE project issues was how do I write a bios for XYZ IDE
    drive. Where XYZ can be 20mb through 1GB and vendors include all
    the known names plus under 500mb drives were CHS and larger ones
    allowed for easier LBA...

    >The following are planned to definitely be supported:
    >Kaypro 10/83
    >Kaypro 10/84
    >
    >The follwing are "pretty sure they should work - shared motherboards":
    >Kaypro 4/84
    >Kaypro 2/84
    >Kaypro 1
    >
    >Following are "maybe's", but I have them to test with:
    >Kaypro 2x
    >
    >Nothing will be mentioned as supported, until properly tested, and we
    >have ALL the above systems to test with. Thankfully, for the most part,
    >later Kaypros were basically a shared-platform motherboard, and had
    >options like modem/RTC/WD1002 interface added or not, as needed.
    >
    >Let me know if this piques your interest.


    I put my comments in.

    Allison

    >
    >Tony
    >sharkonwheels -at- g|\/|ail.com



  3. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    > On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:25:45 GMT, Tony
    > wrote:
    >

    It would be nice if Someone could figure out how to use a CF Card for
    BOOTING a S-100 System. then one could get his FLACKY Floppies onto
    something more permanent.
    Bob in Wisconsin

  4. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    On Jan 29, 1:25 am, Tony wrote:
    > Show of hands....how many folks would be interested in an IDE interface
    > for the Kaypro 10/83 and 10/84? Possibly also the 4/84, 2/84, "New 2",
    > 2x, and Kaypro 1?


    > Desired Feature list:
    > Autoboot from ROM - no floppy-booting
    > Both 44-pin laptop and 40-pin standard IDE interfaces
    > (if possible)Compact flash support for using CF instead of HD's
    > Replacement ROM based on Kaypro 1.9E firmware
    >
    > More than likely, in this ROM, MFM support will be dropped to simplify
    > things, but that shouldn;t be a big loss. For non Kaypro 10's, this
    > shouldn't be an issue at all!
    >
    > Price goal is to be around $100 for the kit ....
    > Kits can be pre-built and tested for about an estimated $50 fee


    > Tony
    > sharkonwheels -at- g|\/|ail.com


    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs...oint.html#gide

    ...is the section of my S-100 Web links page where I keep track of GIDE
    activities and developments. I do that because I was first to
    distribute the original GIDE in the USA. My page is a summary of links
    to GIDE resources and history, you may find it useful. When you
    produce something, provide a Web link and I'll add that to my page.

    I believe any IDE drive interface can use a CF to IDE controller
    adapter. There are also IDE to laptop IDE adapters. They are cheap and
    small, used in the Windows PC world, so consider using those. If your
    GIDE version is oriented physically to accomodate an adapter and the
    CF card all on the Kaypro motherboad, that would be a plus. Otherwise
    an ordinary IDE cable could lead to an IDE hard drive (laptop+adapter
    or 3.5 inch) mounted and powered elsewhere. In any event, mounting and
    DC power for the storage device will be an issue, which you've not
    mentioned.

    Software is often an issue with the GIDE as well as other mass storage
    adapters (floppy, hard drive). So a plan to provide specific software
    for Kaypro models is a good idea. I"ve tried to locate on my Web page,
    any software developed for the GIDE: it's surprisingly little.

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"

  5. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:14:27 -0800 (PST), Herb Johnson
    wrote:


    >http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs...oint.html#gide
    >
    >I believe any IDE drive interface can use a CF to IDE controller
    >adapter. There are also IDE to laptop IDE adapters. They are cheap and
    >small, used in the Windows PC world, so consider using those. If your
    >GIDE version is oriented physically to accomodate an adapter and the
    >CF card all on the Kaypro motherboad, that would be a plus. Otherwise
    >an ordinary IDE cable could lead to an IDE hard drive (laptop+adapter
    >or 3.5 inch) mounted and powered elsewhere. In any event, mounting and
    >DC power for the storage device will be an issue, which you've not
    >mentioned.


    It can but, CF has the added value of direct 8bit interface without
    the need for the GIDE 8bit to 16bit splice hardware. The end result
    is CF is easier to interface than some intel chips! IDE disks were
    supposed to do that but so few did it's not there.

    >Software is often an issue with the GIDE as well as other mass storage
    >adapters (floppy, hard drive). So a plan to provide specific software
    >for Kaypro models is a good idea. I"ve tried to locate on my Web page,
    >any software developed for the GIDE: it's surprisingly little.


    Therein lies the problem. Everyone wants one for theirs but there is
    no generic solution in the case of IDE drives. Using CF of a given
    size or a specific IDE does make the pain far lower as the code then
    doesnt change and it's an integration problem IE hooking it to an
    existing BIOS. GIDE also solved a problem of hardware hookup by
    making it a sandwitch between the mainboard and the Z80 chip so you
    have control over the interface as well. The beauty is a CF can
    reduce the amount of support logic greatly without the 8<->16 byte
    swap and eliminate a lot of parts.

    I have a huge collection of under 500mb IDE disks and they are all
    over the map on power, and CHS values. I started playing with CF
    as a result of ELF2k and I'm hooked as other than the tiny connector
    they are about the easiest to work with. My way around the tiny
    connect is a 9$ IDE to CF adaptor. Prior to that I did a IDE using
    only half the data bus hack as it was easier and the disks are huge
    anyway. Works well but simpler is attractive.

    Allison

    >Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    >http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    >http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    >my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    >if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    >"Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    >S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"



  6. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:19:24 -0600, "Robert J. Stevens"
    wrote:

    >no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    >> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:25:45 GMT, Tony
    >> wrote:
    >>

    >It would be nice if Someone could figure out how to use a CF Card for
    >BOOTING a S-100 System. then one could get his FLACKY Floppies onto
    >something more permanent.
    >Bob in Wisconsin


    Well the answer is yes it can be done. You still need a known
    working configuration (CPU/MEM/IO). I've booted PCs from a 1GB CF.

    The way to do that is build a board with boot rom and CF socket for
    S100 (or under the z80 like GIDE) such that the system boots from the
    rom and uses the SF as any disk. A PC with the right tools can build
    a CP/M file system on the CF and populate it. it could be the more
    conventient transfer media than floppies if the PC has a the right
    adaptor.

    The hardware task is fairly small and bounded especially if it were
    GIDE style (z80 piggyback). The software is the work. The easiest
    way is a 16 or 32k eprom with a monitor and CP/M in rom that can copy
    itself to ram and boot there to even a blank CF.

    Sounds simple but every major name CP/M system platform has
    different IO for the terminal and at different addresses. So to
    make the project practiceable to avoid that it also has to have
    serial IO.. When you ge tto that point the only thing missing to
    make a single board computer is RAM.

    S100 is allmost a special case as its a configuration nightmare
    and little can be done to make it plug and play.

    Allison

  7. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:

    (snip)

    > Prior to that I did a IDE using
    > only half the data bus hack as it was easier and the disks are huge
    > anyway. Works well but simpler is attractive.


    Not so convenient if you want to share disks, though.
    Especially for something like zip.

    Reminds me of a C program I once wrote:

    #include
    int main() {
    while(getchar()!=EOF) putchar(getchar());
    }

    At the time it was for converting files written as eight bit
    data by pascal, which seemed not to have unsigned data types.

    -- glen
    while(


  8. Re: Checking for interest in Kaypro autobooting GIDE project

    On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:03:21 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt
    wrote:

    >no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    >
    >(snip)
    >
    > > Prior to that I did a IDE using
    >> only half the data bus hack as it was easier and the disks are huge
    >> anyway. Works well but simpler is attractive.

    >
    >Not so convenient if you want to share disks, though.
    >Especially for something like zip.


    I was using a 250mb IDE and it was unlikely to be
    a portable media. However it ws both practial and
    simplified the interface to nearly nothing making it painless.
    Sure I didn't use half the disk but to cp/m 128mb is
    still huge space.


    Allison


    >Reminds me of a C program I once wrote:
    >
    >#include
    >int main() {
    >while(getchar()!=EOF) putchar(getchar());
    >}
    >
    >At the time it was for converting files written as eight bit
    >data by pascal, which seemed not to have unsigned data types.
    >
    >-- glen
    >while(



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