ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives - CP/M

This is a discussion on ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives - CP/M ; Hi, I am restoring a Vector Graphic computer and would like to add a hard disk drive. The controller only supports two kinds of hard disk drives, the ST506 and ST412. The HD controller is hard coded to support these ...

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Thread: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

  1. ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    Hi,

    I am restoring a Vector Graphic computer and would like to add a hard
    disk drive. The controller only supports two kinds of hard disk
    drives, the ST506 and ST412. The HD controller is hard coded to
    support these DRIVES not just a compatible interface and relies on a
    special signal present only in these actual drives.

    If anyone has one or more of these hard disk drives they would like to
    sell me, please contact me or reply here.

    Thanks!

    Andrew Lynch

  2. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    lynchaj wrote:


    > If anyone has one or more of these hard disk drives they would like to
    > sell me, please contact me or reply here.


    ST-412 were common in early IBM PCs. That should be the easiest way to
    find one.
    ST-506 can be found in old Apple profile 5mb hard disks, I also have one
    inside my Northstar Advantage, AFAIK the ST-506 was the first 5,25" hard
    drive ever produced.

    Andrea

    --

    http://myretrocomputing.altervista.org

  3. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    lynchaj wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am restoring a Vector Graphic computer and would like to add a hard
    > disk drive. The controller only supports two kinds of hard disk
    > drives, the ST506 and ST412. The HD controller is hard coded to
    > support these DRIVES not just a compatible interface and relies on a
    > special signal present only in these actual drives.
    >
    > If anyone has one or more of these hard disk drives they would like to
    > sell me, please contact me or reply here.
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > Andrew Lynch


    Hi Andrew,

    look at Ebay Item number: 270199570627.
    I'm NOT the seller, just found this!

    Happy new year,

    Uwe.

  4. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    >In case you haven't noticed them, 4drives.com (also an ebay store)

    Awww, they're not related to the old old shareware of the same name
    (supported a secondary hard drive controller under DOS).

  5. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Dec 30 2007, 11:02 am, lynchaj wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am restoring a Vector Graphic computer and would like to add a hard
    > disk drive. The controller only supports two kinds of hard disk
    > drives, the ST506 and ST412. The HD controller is hard coded to
    > support these DRIVES not just a compatible interface and relies on a
    > special signal present only in these actual drives.
    >
    > If anyone has one or more of these hard disk drives they would like to
    > sell me, please contact me or reply here.
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > Andrew Lynch



    Hi All
    From another forum, I found that Andrew truly needed a ST506 or
    ST412.
    It seems that the system he is connecting to needs to have a specific
    hardware modification done to the drive that was only originally done
    on these specific drives.
    There may be other drives that would work but each would require a
    little more analysing of the drives control board.
    It seems he needs to create a continuous Index signal, that is not
    gated by select.
    At one time, the ST506s were easy to get. They'd modified MSDOS
    such that it would no longer work with the 5Meg drives. Many early
    machines were upgraded with ST225s or ST251s and ST506s were in
    piles at local surplus shops. Today they are quite rare.
    Dwight

  6. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    dkelvey@hotmail.com wrote:

    (snip)

    > From another forum, I found that Andrew truly needed a ST506 or
    > ST412.
    > It seems that the system he is connecting to needs to have a specific
    > hardware modification done to the drive that was only originally done
    > on these specific drives.
    > There may be other drives that would work but each would require a
    > little more analysing of the drives control board.
    > It seems he needs to create a continuous Index signal, that is not
    > gated by select.


    The index signal is on the 34 pin cable, and is shared between
    drives connected to the same controller. A continuous index signal
    would only make sense with a one drive system. In that case,
    ground the drive select 0 line and it should generate continuous
    index pulses. The controllers I knew kept the last drive select
    line low until another was selected, but maybe not all do that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506

    -- glen


  7. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 9, 11:17 am, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > dkel...@hotmail.com wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    > > From another forum, I found that Andrew truly needed a ST506 or
    > > ST412.
    > > It seems that the system he is connecting to needs to have a specific
    > > hardware modification done to the drive that was only originally done
    > > on these specific drives.
    > > There may be other drives that would work but each would require a
    > > little more analysing of the drives control board.
    > > It seems he needs to create a continuous Index signal, that is not
    > > gated by select.

    >
    > The index signal is on the 34 pin cable, and is shared between
    > drives connected to the same controller. A continuous index signal
    > would only make sense with a one drive system.


    This is true but that is a requirement of the system he has.

    In that case,
    > ground the drive select 0 line and it should generate continuous
    > index pulses. The controllers I knew kept the last drive select
    > line low until another was selected, but maybe not all do that.


    You are assuning that the system in question parallels all the Index
    signals. This may not be true for this particular system. It may
    not be clear that the system was even intended to support multiple
    drives either.
    Remember, the Index signal could be split out as an independent
    signal from each drive. It is just a wire.
    Dwight


    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506
    >
    > -- glen


    >


  8. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    dkelvey@hotmail.com wrote:

    > On Jan 9, 11:17 am, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:


    (I wrote)
    >>The index signal is on the 34 pin cable, and is shared between
    >>drives connected to the same controller. A continuous index signal
    >>would only make sense with a one drive system.


    > This is true but that is a requirement of the system he has.


    >> In that case,


    >>ground the drive select 0 line and it should generate continuous
    >>index pulses. The controllers I knew kept the last drive select
    >>line low until another was selected, but maybe not all do that.


    > You are assuning that the system in question parallels all the Index
    > signals. This may not be true for this particular system. It may
    > not be clear that the system was even intended to support multiple
    > drives either.


    The interface assumes it by having two selct lines. If a system
    doesn't support two drives, it should ground at least one of the
    select lines. Whether or not the system supports more than one,
    there is only one index line on the cable. (I checked to be sure
    it wasn't on the 20 pin cable.)

    I might see the problem, though. Pin 2 is Reduced Write Current
    for the ST506, and ignored for the ST412. For drives with more than
    eight heads, it is a head select. The controller will ground this
    for certain cylinders, which will not work for a drive with more
    than eight heads, or one that checks the line anyway. In that case,
    disconnect this line.

    ST506/ST412 have at most four heads, so the controller will probably
    only work with four. It may also limit the cylinders. See:

    http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate...nual_Apr82.pdf

    -- glen


    > Remember, the Index signal could be split out as an independent
    > signal from each drive. It is just a wire.




  9. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 9, 5:47*pm, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    ---snip---
    >
    > The interface assumes it by having two selct lines. *If a system
    > doesn't support two drives, it should ground at least one of the
    > select lines. * Whether or not the system supports more than one,
    > there is only one index line on the cable. *(I checked to be sure
    > it wasn't on the 20 pin cable.)
    >

    Hi Glen
    You are still missing the point. This isn't a PC. It may have
    multiple 34 pin cables. There is no reason it has to parallel
    the 34 pin cables. It is not a standard controller and has no
    reason to do any particular method of getting the control
    signals to the drives.
    Think a little outside the box for a minute.
    Dwight

  10. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    dkelvey@hotmail.com wrote:

    > You are still missing the point. This isn't a PC. It may have
    > multiple 34 pin cables. There is no reason it has to parallel
    > the 34 pin cables. It is not a standard controller and has no
    > reason to do any particular method of getting the control
    > signals to the drives.
    > Think a little outside the box for a minute.


    PC doesn't have anything to do with it.

    The 34 pin cable is part of the ST506/ST412 standard.
    (Well, it started the standard.)

    Those pins exist on the cable whether it is connected to
    one or four drives. Yes, it could be designed for one, but
    it still has to pull one of the drive select pins low, and
    when it does the index pin should be active. If no drive
    select is low, the index pin must not be active.
    It looks like stock drives come with all four drive select
    pins connected.

    The signals have to arrive at the drive on the 34 pin
    and 20 pin cables, or it isn't ST506/ST412.

    As I said, though, there is a difference between the
    ST506 and later drives, in that the ST506 uses pin 2
    as a Reduced Write Current pin. The ST412 ignores it,
    but later drives use it for a fourth head select line.

    The controller should pull it low for cylinders 128
    and higher, which will fail for a drive that uses it
    for head select.

    -- glen


  11. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 9, 10:56*pm, "dkel...@hotmail.com" wrote:
    > On Jan 9, 5:47*pm, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > ---snip---
    >
    > > The interface assumes it by having two selct lines. *If a system
    > > doesn't support two drives, it should ground at least one of the
    > > select lines. * Whether or not the system supports more than one,
    > > there is only one index line on the cable. *(I checked to be sure
    > > it wasn't on the 20 pin cable.)

    >
    > Hi Glen
    > *You are still missing the point. This isn't a PC. It may have
    > multiple 34 pin cables. There is no reason it has to parallel
    > the 34 pin cables. It is not a standard controller and has no
    > reason to do any particular method of getting the control
    > signals to the drives.
    > *Think a little outside the box for a minute.
    > Dwight

    -----------

    Still getting into arguments, eh Dwight ;-)

    I should probably let Andrew respond, but what the heck...

    You're both missing some details:

    The particular controller in question does indeed only support one
    hard disk but it's a combined FD/HD controller and some of the signals
    (e.g. Step, Dir, HS0, Trk0, WG) are shared by the HD and the FD, so a
    permanently selected HD would presumably not work even though there is
    only one and the index signals are separate. In fact, the HD is
    largely treated as just another floppy with a few unique signals and
    separate cables as far as the interface is concerned.

    On the other hand, the differences between the 412 and 506 don't
    matter because the controller knows about those two specific drives
    and can handle them differently as required.

    In any case, as discussed on another list, modifying a drive to issue
    a constant index would be trivial, but since the parameters are hard-
    coded in the controller any substituted drive would have to match the
    406 or 512 pretty closely in terms of geometry, step rates, etc.

    mike

  12. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 10, 1:42*am, MikeS wrote:
    > On Jan 9, 10:56*pm, "dkel...@hotmail.com" wrote:
    >
    >---snip---
    > -----------
    >
    > Still getting into arguments, eh Dwight ;-)
    >
    > I should probably let Andrew respond, but what the heck...
    >
    > You're both missing some details:
    >
    >

    Hi Mike
    Thanks for the clarification.
    My problem with Glen is that he almost insist that one
    couldn't make a machine with multiple 34 pin cables.
    There is no physical or electronic reason why this couldn't
    be done. It would be like saying that Apple could create
    their own disk format because others were using IBMs
    format on the disk drives. The cable is just a bunch of
    wires. An engineer can do anything he or she wants with
    them to solve a particular problem. I could even believe
    that they might remove the index signal pair at each
    connector to create a separate one for each drive.
    The twisted select line used in PC was not in the original
    spec for floppy drives but became standard usage.
    Who would have thought that one could make drive select
    3 the select for the second drive.
    Dwight

  13. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    dkelvey@hotmail.com wrote:

    (snip)

    > My problem with Glen is that he almost insist that one
    > couldn't make a machine with multiple 34 pin cables.


    No, I wasn't trying to say that. I was saying that in that
    case, as far as the cable and drive are concerned it is
    a one drive system.

    > There is no physical or electronic reason why this couldn't
    > be done. It would be like saying that Apple could create
    > their own disk format because others were using IBMs
    > format on the disk drives. The cable is just a bunch of
    > wires. An engineer can do anything he or she wants with
    > them to solve a particular problem. I could even believe
    > that they might remove the index signal pair at each
    > connector to create a separate one for each drive.


    They could, but it is only active for a selected drive.
    That has to be true if you allow more than one drive on
    the cable, and ST506/ST412 did.

    > The twisted select line used in PC was not in the original
    > spec for floppy drives but became standard usage.
    > Who would have thought that one could make drive select
    > 3 the select for the second drive.


    True, but the INDEX pin is still active only for
    the selected drive.

    -- glen


  14. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 10, 10:34*am, "dkel...@hotmail.com"
    wrote:
    > On Jan 10, 1:42*am, MikeS wrote:> On Jan 9, 10:56*pm, "dkel...@hotmail.com" wrote:
    >
    > >---snip---
    > > -----------

    >
    > > Still getting into arguments, eh Dwight ;-)

    >
    > > I should probably let Andrew respond, but what the heck...

    >
    > > You're both missing some details:

    >
    > Hi Mike
    > *Thanks for the clarification.
    > *My problem with Glen is that he almost insist that one
    > couldn't make a machine with multiple 34 pin cables.
    > There is no physical or electronic reason why this couldn't
    > be done. It would be like saying that Apple could create
    > their own disk format because others were using IBMs
    > format on the disk drives. The cable is just a bunch of
    > wires. An engineer can do anything he or she wants with
    > them to solve a particular problem. I could even believe
    > that they might remove the index signal pair at each
    > connector to create a separate one for each drive.
    > *The twisted select line used in PC was not in the original
    > spec for floppy drives but became standard usage.
    > *Who would have thought that one could make drive select
    > 3 the select for the second drive.
    > Dwight

    --------
    Well, you're arguing over an essentially irrelevant hypothetical
    situation; I've certainly never seen an HD controller with separate
    control cables for each drive, although of course in theory it is
    possible.

    But as a matter of fact this particular controller *is* close to what
    you're talking about, albeit with a hard disk on one cable and
    floppies on the other; the main controller logic handles both the
    floppies and the hard disk and the common signals are brought out on
    both 34pin cables while the unique signals like /INDEX are brought out
    separately on their respective cable. That's how it can run the HD
    with a constant index (presumably to keep the PLL in sync while the HD
    is deselected) without interfering with the FDC signal.

    And Glen, yes, I imagine that another drive could probably be used
    but, knowing Andrew, I suspect he'd prefer if possible to at least
    start with the original drives that the controller specifies before
    exploring substitutes.

    Having just spent quite a bit of time trying to replace some old
    Tandon and Micropolis 100TPI floppy drives with 96TPI 1.2Mb units, I
    was surprised how many subtle differences there can be among drives
    that at first glance should be more or less compatible. Hard disks
    would probably not be quite as bad, but nevertheless issues like
    buffered seek, step rates (even if higher) etc. may well cause
    compatibility problems with such an old controller, especially since
    it's SSI TTL and doesn't use any industry-standard controller chips.

    mike

  15. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    MikeS wrote:
    (snip)

    > And Glen, yes, I imagine that another drive could probably be used
    > but, knowing Andrew, I suspect he'd prefer if possible to at least
    > start with the original drives that the controller specifies before
    > exploring substitutes.


    They might be pretty hard to find, though.

    Slightly later Seagate models might be somewhat easier to find, and
    one would hope not so different. As far as I remember, the 20MB
    drives were much more popular from the beginning of the PC and XT years.

    -- glen


  16. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    > From another forum, I found that Andrew truly needed a ST506 or
    > ST412.
    > It seems that the system he is connecting to needs to have a specific
    > hardware modification done to the drive that was only originally done
    > on these specific drives.


    Another tidbit of info that wasn't mentioned here, but is quite
    relevant to the discussion, is that the system in question,
    specifically a Vector Graphic S-100 bus machine with a VEDMCS
    controller, didn't support more than one hard drive at a time.

    De

  17. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 11, 6:17*pm, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > Dennis Boone wrote:
    > > *> *From another forum, I found that Andrew truly needed a ST506 or
    > > *> ST412.
    > > *> It seems that the system he is connecting to needs to have a specific
    > > *> hardware modification done to the drive that was only originally done
    > > *> on these specific drives.
    > > Another tidbit of info that wasn't mentioned here, but is quite
    > > relevant to the discussion, is that the system in question,
    > > specifically a Vector Graphic S-100 bus machine with a VEDMCS
    > > controller, didn't support more than one hard drive at a time.

    >
    > It seems that the ST506 and ST412 do have a jumper option that makes
    > them appear selected without any select lines going low. *As described,
    > the only difference is that the LED on the front does not come on.
    >
    > As I previously noted, drives with more than eight heads will use the
    > pin marked "reduced write current" as a head select. *That will likely
    > cause problems unless pin 2 is cut. *(Or put tape over the pin before
    > installing the connector.)
    >
    > -- glen



    Hi Glen,

    Thanks for the replies and helpful information. Thanks also to
    Dwight, Dennis, and Mike and others for their contributions. I do
    appreciate your help!

    I agree that substituting a later model interface compatible hard disk
    like a ST225 is possible *in theory* and is what I would like to do
    eventually. However, since the Vector Graphic system I am restoring is
    quite old its VEDMCS hard disk controller has some peculiarities which
    require special drive configuration.

    As Mike said, I would like to get the default configuration working
    before trying any modified configurations due to subtle
    incompatibilities in drives. At this point the whole discussion is
    entirely theoretical so I am looking for the lowest risk solution
    possible before cutting in real hardware.

    As I have come to discover, the Vector Graphic VEDMCS hard disk
    controller supports only a single hard drive at a time -- either a
    ST-506 or a ST-412. It requires a constant /INDEX signal which is
    accomplished by doing a "cut and jumper" on the ST-506/ST-412 drive
    controller board (not the hard drive controller -- the drive's PCB is
    modified) which brings the constant /INDEX signal out to the interface
    on pin 20 of the 34 pin edge connector.

    Essentially, this is accomplished by isolating the NAND output driver
    gate for /INDEX, tying the "OUTPUT ENABLE" signal high so that INDEX
    is passed though as /INDEX constantly. The reason, I am told, is the
    VEDMCS needs the signal for its PLL to sync before being able access
    the hard disk. I believe this practically ensures the VEDMCS will
    only be able to support a single hard disk since it is effectively
    "tied" to single hard disk signal.

    I have since found the ST-506 schematics and an ST-506 hard drive and
    will be putting this theory to the test in the near future. More
    information as it comes available!

    Thank you very much for your help and I do appreciate you taking the
    time to reply to my posting.

    Andrew Lynch

  18. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    lynchaj wrote:

    (snip)

    > I agree that substituting a later model interface compatible hard disk
    > like a ST225 is possible *in theory* and is what I would like to do
    > eventually. However, since the Vector Graphic system I am restoring is
    > quite old its VEDMCS hard disk controller has some peculiarities which
    > require special drive configuration.


    > As Mike said, I would like to get the default configuration working
    > before trying any modified configurations due to subtle
    > incompatibilities in drives. At this point the whole discussion is
    > entirely theoretical so I am looking for the lowest risk solution
    > possible before cutting in real hardware.


    > As I have come to discover, the Vector Graphic VEDMCS hard disk
    > controller supports only a single hard drive at a time -- either a
    > ST-506 or a ST-412. It requires a constant /INDEX signal which is
    > accomplished by doing a "cut and jumper" on the ST-506/ST-412 drive
    > controller board (not the hard drive controller -- the drive's PCB is
    > modified) which brings the constant /INDEX signal out to the interface
    > on pin 20 of the 34 pin edge connector.


    Just wondering, is the floppy side hard sectored? The only reason
    I can think of for a PLL on the index line is for indexing sectors.
    I once thought about using a PLL on index to generate hard sector
    index pulses with a soft sector drive. And yes, it would take a
    while to lock, so would need a continuous index.

    > Essentially, this is accomplished by isolating the NAND output driver
    > gate for /INDEX, tying the "OUTPUT ENABLE" signal high so that INDEX
    > is passed though as /INDEX constantly. The reason, I am told, is the
    > VEDMCS needs the signal for its PLL to sync before being able access
    > the hard disk. I believe this practically ensures the VEDMCS will
    > only be able to support a single hard disk since it is effectively
    > "tied" to single hard disk signal.


    I suppose the other signals are shared with the floppy, and so
    must stay controlled with the select line. In that case I would
    put a board in between with 7438's and 7414's to control the lines
    that needed to be controlled, and pass index through.

    -- glen


  19. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 12, 11:49*pm, glen herrmannsfeldt
    wrote:
    > lynchaj wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > I agree that substituting a later model interface compatible hard disk
    > > like a ST225 is possible *in theory* and is what I would like to do
    > > eventually. However, since the Vector Graphic system I am restoring is
    > > quite old its VEDMCS hard disk controller has some peculiarities which
    > > require special drive configuration.
    > > As Mike said, I would like to get the default configuration working
    > > before trying any modified configurations due to subtle
    > > incompatibilities in drives. *At this point the whole discussion is
    > > entirely theoretical so I am looking for the lowest risk solution
    > > possible before cutting in real hardware.
    > > As I have come to discover, the Vector Graphic VEDMCS hard disk
    > > controller supports only a single hard drive at a time -- either a
    > > ST-506 or a ST-412. *It requires a constant /INDEX signal which is
    > > accomplished by doing a "cut and jumper" on the ST-506/ST-412 drive
    > > controller board (not the hard drive controller -- the drive's PCB is
    > > modified) which brings the constant /INDEX signal out to the interface
    > > on pin 20 of the 34 pin edge connector.

    >
    > Just wondering, is the floppy side hard sectored? *The only reason
    > I can think of for a PLL on the index line is for indexing sectors.
    > I once thought about using a PLL on index to generate hard sector
    > index pulses with a soft sector drive. *And yes, it would take a
    > while to lock, so would need a continuous index.
    >


    Yes, the Vector Graphics FDCs are all hard sectored for 16 sector
    floppy disks.


    > > Essentially, this is accomplished by isolating the NAND output driver
    > > gate for /INDEX, tying the "OUTPUT ENABLE" signal high so that INDEX
    > > is passed though as /INDEX constantly. *The reason, I am told, is the
    > > VEDMCS needs the signal for its PLL to sync before being able access
    > > the hard disk. *I believe this practically ensures the VEDMCS will
    > > only be able to support a single hard disk since it is effectively
    > > "tied" to single hard disk signal.

    >
    > I suppose the other signals are shared with the floppy, and so
    > must stay controlled with the select line. *In that case I would
    > put a board in between with 7438's and 7414's to control the lines
    > that needed to be controlled, and pass index through.
    >
    > -- glen- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Thanks!

    Andrew Lynch

  20. Re: ST506 and/or ST412 hard disk drives

    On Jan 12, 11:49*pm, glen herrmannsfeldt
    wrote:


    > Just wondering, is the floppy side hard sectored? *The only reason
    > I can think of for a PLL on the index line is for indexing sectors.
    > I once thought about using a PLL on index to generate hard sector
    > index pulses with a soft sector drive. *And yes, it would take a
    > while to lock, so would need a continuous index.

    ---
    Ummm... I don't follow you there; yes, as Andrew says the FD is hard
    sectored, but how is that relevant to the HD index?

    Why would a PLL not be required for the HD? This would be news for the
    designers of this controller, since as it happens the HD index signal
    goes directly to a 4046 PLL, while the FD index first goes through a
    discriminator to separate the sector pulses from the index pulse
    before the two are multiplexed onto a common bus.

    mike




    >
    > > Essentially, this is accomplished by isolating the NAND output driver
    > > gate for /INDEX, tying the "OUTPUT ENABLE" signal high so that INDEX
    > > is passed though as /INDEX constantly. *The reason, I am told, is the
    > > VEDMCS needs the signal for its PLL to sync before being able access
    > > the hard disk. *I believe this practically ensures the VEDMCS will
    > > only be able to support a single hard disk since it is effectively
    > > "tied" to single hard disk signal.

    >
    > I suppose the other signals are shared with the floppy, and so
    > must stay controlled with the select line. *In that case I would
    > put a board in between with 7438's and 7414's to control the lines
    > that needed to be controlled, and pass index through.
    >
    > -- glen- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -



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