CP/M file system support - CP/M

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  1. CP/M file system support

    Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    drive image or actual hard drive partition?

    Thanks,
    Grant


  2. Re: CP/M file system support

    There are some programs, such as 22Disk, that run under DOS and allow
    access to CP/M files. I'm not aware of any Windows software that does this.


    logjam wrote:

    > Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    > drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Grant
    >


  3. Re: CP/M file system support


    logjam wrote:
    > Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    > drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Grant


    Not directly, it is a general no-no for one OS to access another OS's
    partition directly. As Barry mentioned, there is disk22 to move files
    from dos to a floppy, reboot to a cp/m-86 partition, and install files
    from the floppy.

    There are tools to manage a CP/M partition on a hard drive, there may
    be some issues with h.d. size however and/or how the partitions are set
    up. There is the CVV package by Freek Heite, CPM Virtual Volumes, for
    example.

    http://www.seanet.com/~klaw/files.htm

    CVV: OVERCOMES THE 8 MEGABYTE HARD DISK LIMITATION
    (July, 2001)
    144FEAT2: SUPPORT FOR HIGH-CAPACITY FLOPPY DRIVES
    (November, 2000)

    I'm assuming cp/m-86 here, otherwise we are talking about a cp/m-80
    emulator.

    If you could give alittle more info about what you are after....

    Steve


  4. Re: CP/M file system support

    CP/M 2.2 on an Altair.

    The volume would be on either compact flash or MMC/SD.

    I'm designing a memory card right now with 56k SRAM, 32k EEPROM, 512k
    FLASH, an IDE port, and a SD memory slot. It has an I/O device that
    emulates a 2SIO as well.

    The way I have it setup now is you select if the EEPROM is present,
    then if EEPROM or Flash is the primary ROM device. The last 8k of the
    card is the ROM window. The first 4k is the first 4k of the primary
    ROM device. The second 4k is bank switched to allow up to 512k.

    I was hoping to have an easy S-100 retrofit card. Just get a working
    processor card, this card, and have a working system. It would be
    really nice if you could pull the flash card and manipulate the volume.

    Grant

    s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:
    > logjam wrote:
    > > Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    > > drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > > Grant

    >
    > Not directly, it is a general no-no for one OS to access another OS's
    > partition directly. As Barry mentioned, there is disk22 to move files
    > from dos to a floppy, reboot to a cp/m-86 partition, and install files
    > from the floppy.
    >
    > There are tools to manage a CP/M partition on a hard drive, there may
    > be some issues with h.d. size however and/or how the partitions are set
    > up. There is the CVV package by Freek Heite, CPM Virtual Volumes, for
    > example.
    >
    > http://www.seanet.com/~klaw/files.htm
    >
    > CVV: OVERCOMES THE 8 MEGABYTE HARD DISK LIMITATION
    > (July, 2001)
    > 144FEAT2: SUPPORT FOR HIGH-CAPACITY FLOPPY DRIVES
    > (November, 2000)
    >
    > I'm assuming cp/m-86 here, otherwise we are talking about a cp/m-80
    > emulator.
    >
    > If you could give alittle more info about what you are after....
    >
    > Steve



  5. Re: CP/M file system support

    logjam wrote:
    : Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    : drive image or actual hard drive partition?

    The file transfer utilities at
    run under DOS and can copy files to / from a real CP/M-86 partition.

    --
    ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
    John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
    |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show
    :-------------------------------------------------------------------------)

  6. Re: CP/M file system support

    > > logjam wrote:
    > > > Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    > > > drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    > > >
    > > > Thanks,
    > > > Grant


    > s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:
    > > If you could give alittle more info about what you are after....
    > >
    > > Steve


    > logjam wrote:
    > CP/M 2.2 on an Altair.
    >
    > The volume would be on either compact flash or MMC/SD.
    >
    > I'm designing a memory card right now with 56k SRAM, 32k EEPROM, 512k
    > FLASH, an IDE port, and a SD memory slot. It has an I/O device that
    > emulates a 2SIO as well.
    >
    > The way I have it setup now is you select if the EEPROM is present,
    > then if EEPROM or Flash is the primary ROM device. The last 8k of the
    > card is the ROM window. The first 4k is the first 4k of the primary
    > ROM device. The second 4k is bank switched to allow up to 512k.
    >
    > I was hoping to have an easy S-100 retrofit card. Just get a working
    > processor card, this card, and have a working system. It would be
    > really nice if you could pull the flash card and manipulate the volume.
    >
    > Grant


    If you can do this design, it would be quite a project. How about
    putting some of this up on a Web site, so people can see your work in
    progress and offer specific help? Someone might offer you some space if
    you can't get your own site; I presume you don't have a site as you've
    not mentioned one in recent posts and a Web search did not find one.

    It's quite a project, in part because the Altair 8800 CPU card is a
    2MHz 8080. That's very slow and so all these peripherals would have to
    accept commands and be programmable with that processor at that rate.
    The Altair bus has a number of differences from later use of the S-100
    bus, both before and after the IEEE-696 standard.

    Also, if you intend to use that IDE (for compact flash) or SD port to
    transfer to a MSDOS based system, those cards I believe use a FAT file
    system. So your software on the Altair side would have to convert back
    and forth accordingly.

    Some of this is doable, and in fact others have done subsets of this on
    Z80 systems. I'm not sure what has been done with 8080's at 2Mhz.

    My S-100 Web site has a fair number of resources about some of these
    issues: I have some lists of S-100 bus lines; any number of S-100
    manuals available as paper copies; source code ON LINE for an S-100
    floppy disk controller (which I also sell, as you've asked about CP/M
    for your Altair). The sources in particular include specifics on 8080's
    dealing with floppy disk controller chips; the timing issues are likely
    to be simlar to timing issues you may have with hard disk or flash
    interfaces.

    In addition, it's likely that the SD Systems Versafloppy II controller
    will provide you with a CP/M floppy capability for your Altair. You'll
    have to write the BIOS yourself but all the tools are there, again
    there is discussion about 8080 timing issues in the docs, and the card
    is designed to run with a phase 1 clock line, which the Altair has.
    Most S-100 systems did not support it later, only phase 2.

    Of course, other Web sites have some of these and/or yet other
    resources.

    I emailed you privately recently and got no response, so maybe this bit
    of encouragement and caution - and a response to your request for a
    CP/M for your Altair - will get through. Good luck with your projects.

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    web site
    domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  7. Re: CP/M file system support

    Re: "it is a general no-no for one OS to access another OS's partition
    directly."

    That's just wrong. There is no such general rule. All it takes to do
    that is a device driver for the running OS that "knows" the file system
    of the other OS.


    s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:
    > logjam wrote:
    >
    >>Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    >>drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    >>
    >>Thanks,
    >>Grant

    >
    >
    > Not directly, it is a general no-no for one OS to access another OS's
    > partition directly. As Barry mentioned, there is disk22 to move files
    > from dos to a floppy, reboot to a cp/m-86 partition, and install files
    > from the floppy.
    >
    > There are tools to manage a CP/M partition on a hard drive, there may
    > be some issues with h.d. size however and/or how the partitions are set
    > up. There is the CVV package by Freek Heite, CPM Virtual Volumes, for
    > example.
    >
    > http://www.seanet.com/~klaw/files.htm
    >
    > CVV: OVERCOMES THE 8 MEGABYTE HARD DISK LIMITATION
    > (July, 2001)
    > 144FEAT2: SUPPORT FOR HIGH-CAPACITY FLOPPY DRIVES
    > (November, 2000)
    >
    > I'm assuming cp/m-86 here, otherwise we are talking about a cp/m-80
    > emulator.
    >
    > If you could give alittle more info about what you are after....
    >
    > Steve
    >


  8. Re: CP/M file system support

    > If you can do this design, it would be quite a project. How about
    > putting some of this up on a Web site, so people can see your work in
    > progress and offer specific help? Someone might offer you some space if
    > you can't get your own site; I presume you don't have a site as you've
    > not mentioned one in recent posts and a Web search did not find one.


    I have a web site, but I recently switched hosting and haven't set it
    up yet...

    > It's quite a project, in part because the Altair 8800 CPU card is a
    > 2MHz 8080. That's very slow and so all these peripherals would have to
    > accept commands and be programmable with that processor at that rate.
    > The Altair bus has a number of differences from later use of the S-100
    > bus, both before and after the IEEE-696 standard.


    I'm designing the card specifically for the Altair. I have only
    prototyped the CPLD circuit for timing so far. I will be ordering a
    PCB on Monday and should be able to test it by or on Friday.

    > Also, if you intend to use that IDE (for compact flash) or SD port to
    > transfer to a MSDOS based system, those cards I believe use a FAT file
    > system. So your software on the Altair side would have to convert back
    > and forth accordingly.


    I've thought about programming the Altair disk drive hardware emulator
    to read disk images off of a FAT partition, but that would make it
    quite slower. I don't know how easy it will be to write raw data onto
    a SD card, but with compact flash you can store any data you want on
    any sector. My plan is to really only use the SD capability, and just
    have the IDE support for a rainy day.

    > Some of this is doable, and in fact others have done subsets of this on
    > Z80 systems. I'm not sure what has been done with 8080's at 2Mhz.


    Hartec made a Super S-100 card for the IMSAI Series-2. He said that
    the only thing that shouldn't work on the 8080 would be the support for
    3.5" disks. All of my emulated hardware features will require at least
    one wait state, even on the Altair 2MHz 8080! I'm thinking about
    calling it the Super Altair card, because on a faster system the I/O
    would be too slow. However, if you just don't install the I/O devices
    onto the PCB it will be a 0 wait state RAM/ROM/FLASH card.

    It was suggested to me that I make an option to only enable 48k of the
    RAM. Some floppy drives had memory mapped IO in the 48-64k range? Or
    did they put their boot rom in that range?

    Its pretty easy to do things like that. I've also included support on
    the card for the 88-1MCS 1k Altair SRAM card. That way at least 2
    cards in the system won't be modern.

    Grant


  9. Re: CP/M file system support

    On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:29:26 GMT, Barry Watzman
    wrote:

    >Re: "it is a general no-no for one OS to access another OS's partition
    >directly."
    >
    >That's just wrong. There is no such general rule. All it takes to do
    >that is a device driver for the running OS that "knows" the file system
    >of the other OS.


    Your correct on that one. Examples, 486 box with DOS6.22, MINIX2
    partition and Linux partition on one 4.3gb hard disk. There are even
    utilities to get files from one filesystem to another. Even my NT4
    box has a NTFS and FAT16 partitions.

    To access a CP/M partition on a hard disk there are more than a few
    issues but the rule of one OS touching anothers partition is bogus.

    ***caveat***
    To read a CP/M (not CP/M 86) hard drive from a foreign controller
    is a differet set of issues mostly surrounding controller
    compatability (lower level than CP/M itself). That being covered
    the next level problem is **MOST** CP/M(8bit) systems did not put
    any geometry info on the disk that can easily be read in the raw.
    That geometry into including partitions is embedded in the BIOS
    as DPH and DPB (as well as offsets). Not to say it can't be done
    only that often/usually it was not done. However, if you know the
    geometry there is no reason why a utility can't be made that does
    similar things to 22disk or any of the other CP/M<-->DOS floppy
    tools. It would seem possible to creat a disk entry in 22disk (or
    similar multiformat DOS tool) that conforms to the hard disk
    though you still need the software to interface to the physical
    drive. To that end the tool Fcopy (Tim Olmstead) was built to
    service part of that need as the platform to get to floppies and
    later to write a IDE hard disk with the OS (CP/M) from a PC. The
    hard disk part wasn't in FCOPY but the source is there. I'm sure
    other tools that exist at the source level could also be interfaced
    as well.


    Allison

    >
    >
    >s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:
    >> logjam wrote:
    >>
    >>>Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    >>>drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    >>>
    >>>Thanks,
    >>>Grant

    >>
    >>
    >> Not directly, it is a general no-no for one OS to access another OS's
    >> partition directly. As Barry mentioned, there is disk22 to move files
    >> from dos to a floppy, reboot to a cp/m-86 partition, and install files
    >> from the floppy.
    >>
    >> There are tools to manage a CP/M partition on a hard drive, there may
    >> be some issues with h.d. size however and/or how the partitions are set
    >> up. There is the CVV package by Freek Heite, CPM Virtual Volumes, for
    >> example.
    >>
    >> http://www.seanet.com/~klaw/files.htm
    >>
    >> CVV: OVERCOMES THE 8 MEGABYTE HARD DISK LIMITATION
    >> (July, 2001)
    >> 144FEAT2: SUPPORT FOR HIGH-CAPACITY FLOPPY DRIVES
    >> (November, 2000)
    >>
    >> I'm assuming cp/m-86 here, otherwise we are talking about a cp/m-80
    >> emulator.
    >>
    >> If you could give alittle more info about what you are after....
    >>
    >> Steve
    >>



  10. Re: CP/M file system support

    logjam wrote:
    > Are there any tools available for DOS/Windows to access a CP/M hard
    > drive image or actual hard drive partition?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Grant
    >

    There are CPMTOOLS written for unix
    (http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/), i use it to access cpm images
    and disks under linux. It should compile (may be some smaller
    modifications are needed if you dont use cygwin) unter windows but would
    be restricted to images. The cpm format can be adjusted.

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