S100 Floppy Controller Question - CP/M

This is a discussion on S100 Floppy Controller Question - CP/M ; glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > Andrew J. Kroll wrote: > (snip) > >> It has an ftp client. As far as NFS, that would be difficult, but not >> impossible. Trouble is there isn't really enough ram to do something >> ...

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Thread: S100 Floppy Controller Question

  1. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > Andrew J. Kroll wrote:
    > (snip)
    >
    >> It has an ftp client. As far as NFS, that would be difficult, but not
    >> impossible. Trouble is there isn't really enough ram to do something
    >> like that as far as a regular NFS, but something simpler could be
    >> written.

    >
    > NFS is traditionally UDP, which should be much easier than TCP.
    >
    > The favorite read/write block size is 8K, though, but clients
    > can choose a smaller block size. I don't know if 128 is allowed.
    >
    > TFTP might also be interesting, but that would work better with
    > a local disk. The NFS suggestion was to do without a local disk.
    > (That would also save all the BIOS code for disk processing.)
    >
    > Some ethernet boards have on-board RAM buffers, others don't.
    >
    > -- glen
    >


    Well, the actual problem isn't the code per-se, the problem is having
    enough TPA left that it is something that is viable. There are MUCH
    easier ways to do this over plain serial, with simple crc's on data
    blocks. That is how the C128's cp/m+ was originally brought up and
    on-line, over a serial line that handled not just disk, but the tty i/o
    as well... creepy, but true...

    Since the client side for that is pretty much out there in the wild,
    implementing the server side would not be that much of a big deal. As
    far as the total memory needed to do it, it ends up less than the same
    amount needed to work your typical FDC. And since you would be in a nice
    tight loop, you could easily use 19200 baud even on a 2MHz machine. IIRC
    Von Ertwine I think used 9600, but there is no real reason he could not
    have gone higher if he turned IRQ off for a little while, or wrote the
    copy loop better.

    I've also seen this done on the Apple][, and it works fairly well, it's
    not blazingly fast, but, it beats depending on media that ages quite
    rapidly, when in today's media realm, you could just as well keep images
    on a USB stick, serve them from RAM in a host, and when you are done,
    write the completed changes in batch to the stick, thus avoiding wearing
    out the media to fast.


  2. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    "Andrew J. Kroll" wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > Well, the actual problem isn't the code per-se, the problem is
    > having enough TPA left that it is something that is viable. There
    > are MUCH easier ways to do this over plain serial, with simple
    > crc's on data blocks. That is how the C128's cp/m+ was originally
    > brought up and on-line, over a serial line that handled not just
    > disk, but the tty i/o as well... creepy, but true...


    Before CP/M existed I set up communications with a mainframe. It
    used a single program, and communicated over a single RS232 line to
    the micro. Communication was in terms of complete lines, and only
    printing characters (and eoln) were transmittable. The system
    could handle three files simultaneously, one for reading, and one
    each for printing and data output, known as list and punch. The
    names are from the micros viewpoint.

    The system worked well, and I ran it for about 15 years. It could
    be worked into the device selection mechanisms of CP/M, so
    everything was transparent. As communication baud rates went up,
    so did the programs speed. Etc. Took almost no space on the
    micro.

    --
    Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)

    Try the download section.


    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  3. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:03:58 -0800, lynchaj@yahoo.com wrote:
    >
    >> On Nov 14, 10:09 am, Uwe Nass wrote:
    >>> no.s...@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    >>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 03:14:48 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>> Max Scane wrote:
    >>>>> (snip)
    >>>>>> If you have a spare serial port you could try CP/NOS. The client side code
    >>>>>> is only 4KB which you would need to upload using a hex or binary loader.
    >>>>> I was recently wondering if an NFS client had ever been done for CP/M.
    >>>>> CP/NET run over UDP would seem a starting point for a network
    >>>>> based CP/M system. It could then be modified from there to use
    >>>>> NFS protocols instead. Next, a diskless NFS based netboot system.
    >>>> There is the old KA9Q phil Karn package:
    >>>>> Quoted:
    >>>> 05 Nov 94:
    >>>> There seems to be a sudden interest in this stuff, following a
    >>>> casual mention on the BSD/386 mailing list... OK: I can't remember
    >>>> from where I got this stuff, OK? No warranty, no return, etc...
    >>>> There seems to be two separate versions, and I guess I should not
    >>>> have deleted the identical files mentioned above (but they can be
    >>>> easily reconstructed anyway); the files with the same names that
    >>>> remain have significant differences, and I lost interest at that
    >>>> point, since my CP/M box doesn't have a hard disk, so I couldn't
    >>>> even start to compile them... Be aware that even Phil the Great
    >>>> (KA9Q - currently k...@qualcomm.com) has just about disowned this
    >>>> code, so you're on your own... Share and enjoy!
    >>>>> end Quote:
    >>>> There is also another package on the net as well. I've forgotten teh
    >>>> name of it.
    >>>> Allison
    >>>>> -- glen
    >>> Hi all,
    >>>
    >>> there is a rumour, that Phil Karn had sometimes a CP/M (aka Z80)
    >>> version of his famous KA9Q package, but I could never find it on the
    >>> net! Any hints?
    >>>
    >>> Greetings,
    >>>
    >>> Uwe.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>
    >>> - Show quoted text -

    >> http://www.s100-manuals.com/download.htm
    >>
    >> I think this is it but am not 100% sure. If it is, it could probably
    >> use a mirror of the website as it is fairly unusual.

    >
    > Thats it..
    >
    > There also another package on the net as well
    >
    > http://www.sics.se/~adam/uip/index.php/Main_Page
    >
    > It's called uIP.
    >
    >
    > Allison
    >
    >
    >> Best of luck!
    >>
    >> Andrew Lynch

    >


    Hi Allison,

    thanks for the links! Unfortunately the uIP link to the Z80
    version is dead. Any hints?

    Thanks again,

    Uwe.

  4. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:02:46 +0100, Uwe Nass
    wrote:

    >no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    >> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:03:58 -0800, lynchaj@yahoo.com wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Nov 14, 10:09 am, Uwe Nass wrote:
    >>>> no.s...@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    >>>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 03:14:48 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt
    >>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>> Max Scane wrote:
    >>>>>> (snip)
    >>>>>>> If you have a spare serial port you could try CP/NOS. The client side code
    >>>>>>> is only 4KB which you would need to upload using a hex or binary loader.
    >>>>>> I was recently wondering if an NFS client had ever been done for CP/M.
    >>>>>> CP/NET run over UDP would seem a starting point for a network
    >>>>>> based CP/M system. It could then be modified from there to use
    >>>>>> NFS protocols instead. Next, a diskless NFS based netboot system.
    >>>>> There is the old KA9Q phil Karn package:
    >>>>>> Quoted:
    >>>>> 05 Nov 94:
    >>>>> There seems to be a sudden interest in this stuff, following a
    >>>>> casual mention on the BSD/386 mailing list... OK: I can't remember
    >>>>> from where I got this stuff, OK? No warranty, no return, etc...
    >>>>> There seems to be two separate versions, and I guess I should not
    >>>>> have deleted the identical files mentioned above (but they can be
    >>>>> easily reconstructed anyway); the files with the same names that
    >>>>> remain have significant differences, and I lost interest at that
    >>>>> point, since my CP/M box doesn't have a hard disk, so I couldn't
    >>>>> even start to compile them... Be aware that even Phil the Great
    >>>>> (KA9Q - currently k...@qualcomm.com) has just about disowned this
    >>>>> code, so you're on your own... Share and enjoy!
    >>>>>> end Quote:
    >>>>> There is also another package on the net as well. I've forgotten teh
    >>>>> name of it.
    >>>>> Allison
    >>>>>> -- glen
    >>>> Hi all,
    >>>>
    >>>> there is a rumour, that Phil Karn had sometimes a CP/M (aka Z80)
    >>>> version of his famous KA9Q package, but I could never find it on the
    >>>> net! Any hints?
    >>>>
    >>>> Greetings,
    >>>>
    >>>> Uwe.- Hide quoted text -
    >>>>
    >>>> - Show quoted text -
    >>> http://www.s100-manuals.com/download.htm
    >>>
    >>> I think this is it but am not 100% sure. If it is, it could probably
    >>> use a mirror of the website as it is fairly unusual.

    >>
    >> Thats it..
    >>
    >> There also another package on the net as well
    >>
    >> http://www.sics.se/~adam/uip/index.php/Main_Page
    >>
    >> It's called uIP.
    >>
    >>
    >> Allison
    >>
    >>
    >>> Best of luck!
    >>>
    >>> Andrew Lynch

    >>

    >
    >Hi Allison,
    >
    > thanks for the links! Unfortunately the uIP link to the Z80
    >version is dead. Any hints?


    I know, wish they would fix dead links. Look at the TRS80 version
    as thats a Z80 too.

    Allison
    >
    >Thanks again,
    >
    >Uwe.



  5. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    On 16 Nov, 11:02, Uwe Nass wrote:
    > no.s...@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:03:58 -0800, lync...@yahoo.com wrote:

    >
    > >> On Nov 14, 10:09 am, Uwe Nass wrote:
    > >>> no.s...@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
    > >>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 03:14:48 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt
    > >>>> wrote:
    > >>>>> Max Scane wrote:
    > >>>>> (snip)
    > >>>>>> If you have a spare serial port you could try CP/NOS. The client side code
    > >>>>>> is only 4KB which you would need to upload using a hex or binary loader.
    > >>>>> I was recently wondering if an NFS client had ever been done for CP/M.
    > >>>>> CP/NET run over UDP would seem a starting point for a network
    > >>>>> based CP/M system. It could then be modified from there to use
    > >>>>> NFS protocols instead. Next, a diskless NFS based netboot system.
    > >>>> There is the old KA9Q phil Karn package:
    > >>>>> Quoted:
    > >>>> 05 Nov 94:
    > >>>> There seems to be a sudden interest in this stuff, following a
    > >>>> casual mention on the BSD/386 mailing list... OK: I can't remember
    > >>>> from where I got this stuff, OK? No warranty, no return, etc...
    > >>>> There seems to be two separate versions, and I guess I should not
    > >>>> have deleted the identical files mentioned above (but they can be
    > >>>> easily reconstructed anyway); the files with the same names that
    > >>>> remain have significant differences, and I lost interest at that
    > >>>> point, since my CP/M box doesn't have a hard disk, so I couldn't
    > >>>> even start to compile them... Be aware that even Phil the Great
    > >>>> (KA9Q - currently k...@qualcomm.com) has just about disowned this
    > >>>> code, so you're on your own... Share and enjoy!
    > >>>>> end Quote:
    > >>>> There is also another package on the net as well. I've forgotten teh
    > >>>> name of it.
    > >>>> Allison
    > >>>>> -- glen
    > >>> Hi all,

    >
    > >>> there is a rumour, that Phil Karn had sometimes a CP/M (aka Z80)
    > >>> version of his famous KA9Q package, but I could never find it on the
    > >>> net! Any hints?

    >
    > >>> Greetings,

    >
    > >>> Uwe.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >>> - Show quoted text -
    > >>http://www.s100-manuals.com/download.htm

    >
    > >> I think this is it but am not 100% sure. If it is, it could probably
    > >> use a mirror of the website as it is fairly unusual.

    >
    > > Thats it..

    >
    > > There also another package on the net as well

    >
    > >http://www.sics.se/~adam/uip/index.php/Main_Page

    >
    > > It's called uIP.

    >
    > > Allison

    >
    > >> Best of luck!

    >
    > >> Andrew Lynch

    >
    > Hi Allison,
    >
    > thanks for the links! Unfortunately the uIP link to the Z80
    > version is dead. Any hints?
    >
    > Thanks again,
    >
    > Uwe.


    A copy is available here: http://z80cpu.eu/tmp/

    Piergiorgio

  6. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    Richard A. Cini wrote:
    > Following up, I just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This
    > model only has a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so
    > I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller.
    >

    I have some copies of a floppy for a Morrow Disk Jockey that I sold to a
    fellow a while back.
    It is marked Morrow Disk Jockey I/O CP/M V2.2 28K
    CBIOS Rev 2.7.20 1979
    There are 35 files on the Floppy which is a single sided blocked at 512
    bytes
    Some .com's .asm's
    Looks like a system could be generated from it if it would boot.
    If I used the Copy facility of my CompuPro to make them then the system
    tracks should be there.
    What other systems do you have that boots to CP/M 2.2??
    TIA
    Bob in Wisconsin

  7. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    Richard A. Cini wrote:
    > Following up, I just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This
    > model only has a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so
    > I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller.
    >

    I also have a SSSD Floppy marked CP/M 2.2 24K
    The label on the left says 24K vs CPM 2.2 of 2-4-82
    BIOS For 2 FD STD Console and Printer
    Serial # 2020-1688
    copyright 1983 digital research

    I got this from Don Tarbell when I purchased a system from him.
    This together with the D/J floppy certainly would make it possible to
    generate a system for the D/J
    I would need a Couple of GOOD SSSD 8" floppies to make copies on
    TIA
    Bob

  8. Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question

    On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:58:39 -0600, "Robert J. Stevens"
    wrote:

    >Richard A. Cini wrote:
    >> Following up, I just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This
    >> model only has a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so
    >> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller.
    >>

    >I also have a SSSD Floppy marked CP/M 2.2 24K
    >The label on the left says 24K vs CPM 2.2 of 2-4-82
    >BIOS For 2 FD STD Console and Printer
    >Serial # 2020-1688
    >copyright 1983 digital research
    >
    >I got this from Don Tarbell when I purchased a system from him.
    >This together with the D/J floppy certainly would make it possible to
    >generate a system for the D/J
    >I would need a Couple of GOOD SSSD 8" floppies to make copies on
    >TIA
    >Bob


    If the goal is to make a working system you need to do things. One is
    have a copy of some (any!) CP/M2.2 media with a known system on it.
    That is the CCP, BDOS, and some BIOS. You ned to be able to read that
    disk at the sector level and save the results in ram. This will allow
    you to capture the useful ccp and bdos. However unless the bios is
    for teh machie your using and I mean specifically the FDC don't
    bother with it. If the FDC in use matches the BIOS then it's
    reasonable to grab the bios and with a DDT like tool or similar
    hand edit the console IO to match the system in use.

    BDOS and CCP are generic. The BIOS MUST match all I/O be it disk
    or terminal I/O. Within the BIOS if the disk I/O is a match but the
    console is wrong it's possible and doable (tools permiting) to patch
    the I/O for the I/O in use.

    Now, to make a point. nearly all of the above can be done on a PC.
    You can download CCP/BDOS and mayb even a bios. The challange is
    getting it in the box so you can boot it. If the bos has a Rom
    monitor it's easier, if not you need to get a rom monitor going or
    your either stuck with a front panel if it has one or your own
    devices..

    In the end PC can be handy as there are enough SIMs to run, test and
    even create new code including a BIOS. Getting it in the box and on a
    working disk is usually far less frustrating is you have a working
    system even if it's not the target system.

    FOR S100:
    For years I used my NS* system by transplanting the controller in to
    others to boot and then copy needed new system, code into place
    to create new boot media and all. usually rather than put the NS*
    controller in a new crate I would install the target systems FDC and
    I/O if there wer no conclicts in the NS* crate. Boot NSdos or NS*
    CP/M
    and start testing and building the BIOS for the new FDC or
    copy a know "system" to that floppy is I already had it. This works
    well as the NS* was memory mapped and most other FDCs are
    I/O mapped. However IF I/O addresses are not in conflict I've put the
    new FDC in my CCS and did the needed work to test and build
    media as needed.

    For non S100 you really need a monitor program to get and put bytes
    into ram.

    Allison




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