PL/M sources for old CP/M? - CP/M

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  1. PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    Somewhere among the recent discussion threads, was some discussion
    about
    the old PL/M sources of an early version of CP/M which was apparently
    released,
    and then removed, from the CPMUG disk library many years ago. This has
    been
    discussed before in comp.os.cpm, and I put some of those notes on my
    DRI Web
    site. After further Web work and discussion with Udo Munk, I've
    updated those notes:

    http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/dri_public.html

    Bottom line: online copies of CPMUG disk #5 don't have these old PLM
    files, and
    other copies online of these files are missing or corrupt. If anyone
    has an OLD disk
    of CPMUG #5, please offer the PLM files to me, or to Udo Munk, or to
    Gaby at the
    "unofficial CP/M Web site"; and also tell me when and where you got
    that disk!

    Of course any corrections or additions to my Web page above are
    apprecaited.

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  2. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    Hello Herb,

    Herb Johnson schrieb:

    >http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/dri_public.html


    Thank for your Info.

    A little write error with "Nov 2007" instead of "Oct 2007".

    On the Site.

    http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/dri_public.html

    Rolf


  3. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 20, 12:57 am, Herb Johnson wrote:
    > Somewhere among the recent discussion threads, was some discussion
    > about
    > the old PL/M sources of an early version of CP/M which was apparently
    > released,
    > and then removed, from the CPMUG disk library many years ago. This has
    > been
    > discussed before in comp.os.cpm, and I put some of those notes on my
    > DRI Web
    > site. After further Web work and discussion with Udo Munk, I've
    > updated those notes:
    >
    > http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/dri_public.html
    >
    > Bottom line: online copies of CPMUG disk #5 don't have these old PLM
    > files, and
    > other copies online of these files are missing or corrupt. If anyone
    > has an OLD disk
    > of CPMUG #5, please offer the PLM files to me, or to Udo Munk, or to
    > Gaby at the
    > "unofficial CP/M Web site"; and also tell me when and where you got
    > that disk!
    >
    > Of course any corrections or additions to my Web page above are
    > apprecaited.
    >

    Hi Herb,
    Great summary.
    In addition, the reference I've mentioned regarding GK's statement of
    the first commercial licensing contracts of CP/M in 1975, is:
    DDJ Volume 5, Issue 1, Number 41 January 1980.
    "The Evolution of an Industry: One Person's Viewpoint" by Gary A.
    Kildall.
    with the article carrying the subtitle: 'The History of CP/M'.

    .... "John Torode redesigned and refined our original controller and
    produced his first complete computer system, marketed under his
    company name, Digital Systems, (which later became Digital
    Mircosystems). The first commercial licensing of CP/M took place in
    1975 with contracts between Digital Systems and Omron of America for
    use in their intelligent terminal, and with Lawrence Livermore
    Laboratories where CP/M was used to monitor programs in the Octopus
    network."

    I believe 'Octopus' is a word which is found in the PL/M
    sources..yes..
    "
    /* FUNC IS THE DISK MONITOR FUNCTION NUMBER AS SHOWN BELOW:
    0: SYSTEM RESET
    1: READ CONSOLE DEVICE
    2: WRITE CONSOLE DEVICE
    3: READ OCTOPUS
    4: WRITE OCTOPUS
    "
    ....
    There you have it.
    According to the article, about a year later, "In 1976, Glenn Ewing
    approached"...and the result was, "Imsai was subsequently licensed to
    distribute CP/M version 1.3 which eventually evolved into an operating
    system called IMDOS."

    Now, that is pretty conclusive, but....
    How is it that EBasic is public domain? Was _that_ because it was
    developed at a public institution? ..that is, the Naval Academy.
    Right here is where I'm getting confused. Was Gary teaching and
    consulting to Intel at the same time?
    The article starts: "1973...",..."As a consultant, my job was to
    design and develop certain software tools for Intel. One was Interp/
    80, a program which simulated Intel's newly evolved 8080
    microprocessor to be used by Intel's customers on timesharing systems.
    I hoped my simulation resembled the operation of Shima's first 8080
    chip which had finally come to life" (Gary is looking at it through a
    microscope in Shima lab, as Shima had come down the hall to Gary's
    office to grab him to have a look.)

    I'll be quiet now.
    Steve


    > Herb Johnson
    >
    > Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USAhttp://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web sitehttp://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    > my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    > if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    > "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    > S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"




  4. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:19:12 -0700, s_dubrovich wrote:

    > On Oct 20, 12:57 am, Herb Johnson wrote:

    ....
    ....
    > I believe 'Octopus' is a word which is found in the PL/M
    > sources..yes..
    > "
    > /* FUNC IS THE DISK MONITOR FUNCTION NUMBER AS SHOWN BELOW:
    > 0: SYSTEM RESET
    > 1: READ CONSOLE DEVICE
    > 2: WRITE CONSOLE DEVICE
    > 3: READ OCTOPUS
    > 4: WRITE OCTOPUS
    > "
    > ...
    > There you have it.


    One could quote a more interesting part of that source with regards
    to the octopus:

    DECLARE
    /* TELETYPE DECLARATIONS */
    TTI LITERALLY '0',
    TTO LITERALLY '0',
    TTS LITERALLY '1',
    TTC LITERALLY '1',
    /* CRT DECLARATIONS (NOTE CONFLICT WITH OCTOPUS)*/
    CTI LITERALLY '4',
    CTO LITERALLY '4',
    CTS LITERALLY '5',
    /* OCTOPUS DECLARATIONS */
    /* (CHECK WITH TORODE FOR CHANNEL B ASSIGNMENTS) */
    OAI LITERALLY '4',
    OAO LITERALLY '4',
    OAS LITERALLY '5',
    OBI LITERALLY '6',
    OBO LITERALLY '6',
    OBS LITERALLY '7',

    Looks like Torode also build the octopus controller for Kildall, and at
    the time this software was written, he didn't know the I/O ports assigned
    to channel B.

    I find this interesting because in all publications only the floppy disk
    controller is mentioned. Well, could be expected that Torode had build
    more hardware for Kildall, because software was his passion and hardware
    obviously was not.

    ....
    > Steve
    >
    >> Herb Johnson


    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  5. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    Herb Johnson wrote:
    > Somewhere among the recent discussion threads, was some discussion
    > about
    > the old PL/M sources of an early version of CP/M which was apparently
    > released,
    > and then removed, from the CPMUG disk library many years ago. This has
    > been
    > discussed before in comp.os.cpm, and I put some of those notes on my
    > DRI Web
    > site. After further Web work and discussion with Udo Munk, I've
    > updated those notes:
    >
    > http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/dri_public.html
    >
    > Bottom line: online copies of CPMUG disk #5 don't have these old PLM
    > files, and
    > other copies online of these files are missing or corrupt. If anyone
    > has an OLD disk
    > of CPMUG #5, please offer the PLM files to me, or to Udo Munk, or to
    > Gaby at the
    > "unofficial CP/M Web site"; and also tell me when and where you got
    > that disk!
    >
    >


    Hello Herb,

    I have a copy of SIG/M volume 5 which I received at a LICA
    (Long Island Computer Association) meeting. This would have
    been shortly after the volume was released. I can't remember
    when that was however.

    It was our custom for one or more users to bring their
    computer to the meeting so that others could bring blank
    floppies and have copies of the latest volumes made there.
    I remember several occasions where I dragged my IMSAI 8080,
    Digital Systems dual 8 in. floppy drive system, and video
    display to meetings and used it to make copies. We normally
    made image copies of the disks because using PIP to copy the
    files took far longer.

    Later when it became known that the CP/M source files were
    deleted from volume 5 I used a sector editor to unerase the
    files that were there. CCP.PLM, BDOS.PLM and LOAD.PLM were
    complete and are identical to those available at the Unoffical
    CP/M site. Z-PIP.PLM was badly corrupted because in the
    process of copying volumes the floppy had been made bootable
    and PIP.COM and COPY.COM placed on it. How I wish that had
    not been the case. Earlier this year I made a disk image of
    the volume 5 disk and in studying it found there may be
    another piece of Z-PIP.PLM which was not unerased. I am now
    checking to see if more can be recovered. IOLIB.PLM must
    have been overwritten as there is no evidence of it.

    In your WWW page at the link above it mentions that Udo Munk
    reported that LOAD.PLM is broken and would not compile. The
    actual problem is with the setup of the compiler. In the
    excerpt from LOAD.PLM below the secret is the line $I=5.

    /* LOADCOM LOADS TRANSIENT COMMAND FILES TO THE DISK FROM THE
    CURRENTLY DEFINED READER PERIPHERAL. THE LOADER PLACES THE MACHINE
    CODE INTO A FILE WHICH APPEARS IN THE LOADCOM COMMAND */

    $I=5

    MOVE: PROCEDURE(S,D,N);
    DECLARE (S,D) ADDRESS, N BYTE,

    That appears to be a compiler directive to include the
    file from Unit 5 into the source at this point. I was not
    able to get it to do this but the file to be included must
    have been IOLIB.PLM. I found that the section of CCP.PLM
    between the lines

    /******* LIBRARY PROCEDURES FOR DISKIO **************/

    /******* END OF LIBRARY PROCEDURES ******************/

    makes an acceptable substitute for IOLIB.PLM in this case.
    After it was inserted into LOAD.PLM it compiled correctly.

    I was able to run LOAD and CCP using a CP/M 2.2 BDOS in
    MYZ80.

    To run LOAD:
    1) Change the 0FAH: at the start of LOAD.PLM to 0100H:.
    Otherwise DDT and SID won't load it.
    2) If no file is specified LOAD switches to input from
    READER and cannot be terminated.

    To run CCP:
    1) CCP only accepts upper case input.
    2) CCP commands: DIRECT ERASE TYPE SAVE A: B: ASSIGN RENAME
    3) Try DIRECT instead of DIR.
    4) DIRECT and TYPE can only display files on current drive.

    Jeffrey W. Shook



    Sample CCP session output:

    CCP1X running under CP/M 2.2 BDOS and BIOS

    A>DIRECT *.SYM
    HELLO SYM
    CCP SYM
    BIOMON SYM
    A>
    A>DIRECT *.HEX
    CCP HEX
    X HEX
    LOAD1X HEX
    HELLO HEX
    A>TYPE HELLO.SYM
    0200 MEMORY 0106 HELLO 0114 BDOS 01FD FUNC
    01FE PARM
    A>
    A>B:
    B>
    B>SAVE 10 AAA.AAA
    B>DIRECT *.AAA
    AAA AAA
    B>
    B>RENAME ABC.AAA AAA.AAA
    B>DIRECT *.AAA
    ABC AAA
    B>
    B>ERASE ABC.AAA
    B>DIRECT *.AAA
    B>
    A>DUMP HELLO.HEX <-- CP/M 2.2 DUMP

    0000 0D 0A 2D 2D 2D 2D 2D 2D 2D 2D 2D 2D 20 46 4F 52
    0010 54 2E 31 37 0D 0A 20 3A 31 30 30 31 30 30 30 30
    0020 33 31 46 43 30 31 43 33 32 30 30 31 34 38 34 35
    0030 34 43 34 43 34 46 32 30 35 37 34 46 35 32 34 43
    0040 30 35 0D 0A 20 3A 31 30 30 31 31 30 30 30 34 34
    0050 30 44 30 41 32 34 32 31 46 44 30 31 37 31 32 43
    0060 37 33 32 33 37 32 43 33 30 35 30 30 43 39 30 42
    0070 0D 0A 20 3A 31 30 30 31 32 30 30 30 30 45 30 39
    0080 31 31 30 36 30 31 43 44 31 34 30 31 30 45 30 30
    0090 31 45 30 30 31 36 30 30 43 44 31 34 39 42 0D 0A
    00A0 20 3A 30 33 30 31 33 30 30 30 30 31 46 42 37 36
    00B0 35 41 0D 0A 20 3A 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30
    00C0 0D 0A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A
    00D0 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A
    00E0 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A
    00F0 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A 1A
    A>
    A>LOAD1X HELLO

    SOURCE IS DISK

    FIRST ADDRESS 0100
    LAST ADDRESS 0132
    BYTES READ 0033
    RECORDS WRITTEN 01

    A>
    A>LOAD1X

    SOURCE IS READER




  6. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 18:48:15 -0400, Jeffrey W. Shook wrote:

    > Herb Johnson wrote:

    ....
    >> Bottom line: online copies of CPMUG disk #5 don't have these old PLM
    >> files, and
    >> other copies online of these files are missing or corrupt. If anyone
    >> has an OLD disk
    >> of CPMUG #5, please offer the PLM files to me, or to Udo Munk, or to
    >> Gaby at the
    >> "unofficial CP/M Web site"; and also tell me when and where you got
    >> that disk!
    >>
    >>

    ....
    > In your WWW page at the link above it mentions that Udo Munk
    > reported that LOAD.PLM is broken and would not compile. The
    > actual problem is with the setup of the compiler. In the
    > excerpt from LOAD.PLM below the secret is the line $I=5.
    >
    > /* LOADCOM LOADS TRANSIENT COMMAND FILES TO THE DISK FROM THE
    > CURRENTLY DEFINED READER PERIPHERAL. THE LOADER PLACES THE MACHINE
    > CODE INTO A FILE WHICH APPEARS IN THE LOADCOM COMMAND */
    >
    > $I=5
    >
    > MOVE: PROCEDURE(S,D,N);
    > DECLARE (S,D) ADDRESS, N BYTE,
    >
    > That appears to be a compiler directive to include the
    > file from Unit 5 into the source at this point. I was not
    > able to get it to do this but the file to be included must
    > have been IOLIB.PLM. I found that the section of CCP.PLM
    > between the lines


    That is why I said it's incomplete, iolib.plm is missing. Correct,
    $I=x will redirect input to another channel. If using with GNU Fortran 77
    that would be the file fort.5 with $I=5, instead of fort.2, the default.

    >
    > /******* LIBRARY PROCEDURES FOR DISKIO **************/
    >
    > /******* END OF LIBRARY PROCEDURES ******************/
    >
    > makes an acceptable substitute for IOLIB.PLM in this case. After it was
    > inserted into LOAD.PLM it compiled correctly.


    Very nice, just tried that and now load.plm compiles clean too, thanks for
    this hint.

    ....
    > Jeffrey W. Shook


    If you can extract other pieces from this disk I sure would be interested
    to have a look, thanks.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  7. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 01:53:46 +0200, Udo Munk wrote:

    ....
    > That is why I said it's incomplete, iolib.plm is missing. Correct,
    > $I=x will redirect input to another channel. If using with GNU Fortran 77
    > that would be the file fort.5 with $I=5, instead of fort.2, the default.

    ....

    Not true, forgotten already after fixing that in mac80 ;-)
    GNU Fortran 77 under UNIX connects I/O channel 5 with stdin and I/O
    channel 6 with stdout, which both is your terminal. Use $I=3 and copy
    the file to fort.3, that actually should work.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  8. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 18:48:15 -0400, Jeffrey W. Shook wrote:

    ....
    > I was able to run LOAD and CCP using a CP/M 2.2 BDOS in
    > MYZ80.
    >
    > To run LOAD:
    > 1) Change the 0FAH: at the start of LOAD.PLM to 0100H:.
    > Otherwise DDT and SID won't load it.
    > 2) If no file is specified LOAD switches to input from
    > READER and cannot be terminated.
    >
    > To run CCP:
    > 1) CCP only accepts upper case input.
    > 2) CCP commands: DIRECT ERASE TYPE SAVE A: B: ASSIGN RENAME
    > 3) Try DIRECT instead of DIR.
    > 4) DIRECT and TYPE can only display files on current drive.
    >
    > Jeffrey W. Shook

    ....

    Some more hints if you going to try that:

    In ccp.plm the line

    2900H: DECLARE BDOS LITERALLY '3206H', TRAN LITERALLY '100H';

    needs to be changed to:

    2900H: DECLARE BDOS LITERALLY '5', TRAN LITERALLY '100H';

    This early CP/M wasn't using the BDOS jump vector at 0005H, applications
    jumped right into the BDOS and that address most likely is wrong for your
    CP/M 2.2 system.

    DIR instead of DIRECT also works. The command needs an argument, use
    DIR *.* or some such, else it won't show anything.

    Enjoy,
    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  9. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    Hello, Steve!

    > Now, that is pretty conclusive, but....
    > How is it that EBasic is public domain? Was _that_ because it was
    > developed at a public institution? ..that is, the Naval Academy.
    > Right here is where I'm getting confused. Was Gary teaching and
    > consulting to Intel at the same time?


    Ok. You seem to be mixing several things. Let me clear a few.

    Gary Kildall was a teacher of Computer Science (specializing in
    compiler writing -- his Ph.D. Thesis was about optimization of
    compiler code). The NPS was using IBM S/360 mainframes, since cost was
    not a matter. Before writing PL/M, he wrote another compiler (whose
    name I have not mentioned, intentionally, over the years).

    According to legend, when Intel introduced the 8008, Gary wondered how
    you could code Sine and Cosine subroutines using such an instruction
    set (copied, as I have explained, from the DECsystem-10 mainframe --
    Intel had one). Intel was also providing free systems to the NPS.
    That's how Gary got to have an 8008 system working: it had been given
    by Intel to the NPS.

    Back to Gordon Eubanks, now. Gordon was a student of Gary. He and 2
    other students made a "pseudo-compiler" (I hope that you see what I
    mean, if you are an old CP/M fan) based both on the compiler made by
    Gary (itself based on another famous compiler) and the Dartmouth BASIC
    (at the beginning, BASIC was compiled). The source code (in PL/M) of
    this NBASIC (NPS BASIC) was published in Gordon's thesis.

    Gary Kildall, knowing that BASIC was popular, ported this PL/M program
    (remember, running on the IBM S/360 of the NPS, under Interp/80) to CP/
    M.

    It is a descendant of this port that became known as "BASIC-E". This
    one was given for free (the binaries only) to the CP/M User's Group.
    If you wanted, you could disassemble it, using Gordon's Thesis (I did
    it, but the Thesis does not explain 2 programs used at the time...).

    Seeing that this freebie was popular, Gordon (who has a commercial
    mind) set up a company (run by his Mother when he was navigating in
    submarines) to sell the yet-another-time improved version, now called
    "CBASIC". Most people of the time say that the "C" was standing for
    "commercial", not "CP/M". If you have ever disassembled a PL/M
    program, it is obvious that it is still heavily based on the previous
    version.

    However, I must end now, since I got a message from the Southampton
    Central Library cybercafe telling me that my connection is going to
    close...

    Hope to have helped. (Didn't you received a CD-ROM from me? It should
    contain some PL/M source codes...)

    Yours Sincerely,
    Mr Emmanuel Roche




  10. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 21, 12:19 am, s_dubrov...@yahoo.com wrote:

    > Hi Herb,
    > Great summary.
    > In addition, the reference I've mentioned regarding GK's statement of
    > the first commercial licensing contracts of CP/M in 1975, is:
    > DDJ Volume 5, Issue 1, Number 41 January 1980.
    > "The Evolution of an Industry: One Person's Viewpoint" by Gary A.
    > Kildall.
    > with the article carrying the subtitle: 'The History of CP/M'.


    Yes, I also reference that article on my DRI Web pages. Thanks for
    further notes on
    the use of "Octopus" in the PL/M sources.

    > "... The first commercial licensing of CP/M took place in
    > 1975 with contracts between Digital Systems and Omron of America for
    > use in their intelligent terminal, and with Lawrence Livermore
    > Laboratories where CP/M was used to monitor programs in the Octopus
    > network."
    >
    > I believe 'Octopus' is a word which is found in the PL/M
    > sources..yes..
    > "
    > /* FUNC IS THE DISK MONITOR FUNCTION NUMBER AS SHOWN BELOW:
    > 0: SYSTEM RESET
    > 1: READ CONSOLE DEVICE
    > 2: WRITE CONSOLE DEVICE
    > 3: READ OCTOPUS
    > 4: WRITE OCTOPUS
    > "
    > ...


    Thanks!

    > Now, that is pretty conclusive, but....
    > How is it that EBasic is public domain? Was _that_ because it was
    > developed at a public institution? ..that is, the Naval Academy.


    I think the mere fact that EBASIC was developed as a master's thesis
    at the Naval
    Postgraduate School, is not sufficient for it to have become "public
    domain". One way or
    another, Eubanks seems to have cooperated with BASIC-E becoming in the
    public domain.
    He acknowledges that situation in a number of interviews, as well as
    the situation in which
    he wrote CBASIC as a COMMERCIAL product for his own company, and for
    IMSAI.

    But, I've found NO references by Kildall about any version of CP/M
    being put into the "public domain".
    No suggestions of this by him have surfaced. And the ONE instance
    where SOMEONE put his
    CP/M code into a public venue - CPMUG disk #5 - it appears that source
    was "yanked" early on. I'm trying to
    find out HOW early, but Jeffrey suggests it was pretty early.

    For reference, my on-line document notes that CPMUG disk #5 contains
    files with embedded dates of
    Aug and Sept 1977. Disks #6 and #4 have dates within months of that
    range. These facts suggest that CPMUG disk #5 was compiled something
    in mid-1977. Somewhere, there is an article published in 1977 that
    says when CPMUG disk #5 was "released". But Jeffrey Shook's post
    reminds us that CPMUG was rather informal and local at the time, disks
    were passed around or mailed, so a "release date" may be not in fact
    exist!

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson New Jersey USA
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  11. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 21, 11:09 am, Udo Munk wrote:
    > On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:19:12 -0700, s_dubrovich wrote:
    > > On Oct 20, 12:57 am, Herb Johnson wrote:

    >
    > ...
    > ...
    >
    > > I believe 'Octopus' is a word which is found in the PL/M
    > > sources..yes..
    > > "
    > > /* FUNC IS THE DISK MONITOR FUNCTION NUMBER AS SHOWN BELOW:
    > > 0: SYSTEM RESET
    > > 1: READ CONSOLE DEVICE
    > > 2: WRITE CONSOLE DEVICE
    > > 3: READ OCTOPUS
    > > 4: WRITE OCTOPUS
    > > "
    > > ...
    > > There you have it.

    >
    > One could quote a more interesting part of that source with regards
    > to the octopus:
    >


    Yes, there also.

    > DECLARE
    > /* TELETYPE DECLARATIONS */
    > TTI LITERALLY '0',
    > TTO LITERALLY '0',
    > TTS LITERALLY '1',
    > TTC LITERALLY '1',
    > /* CRT DECLARATIONS (NOTE CONFLICT WITH OCTOPUS)*/
    > CTI LITERALLY '4',
    > CTO LITERALLY '4',
    > CTS LITERALLY '5',
    > /* OCTOPUS DECLARATIONS */
    > /* (CHECK WITH TORODE FOR CHANNEL B ASSIGNMENTS) */
    > OAI LITERALLY '4',
    > OAO LITERALLY '4',
    > OAS LITERALLY '5',
    > OBI LITERALLY '6',
    > OBO LITERALLY '6',
    > OBS LITERALLY '7',
    >
    > Looks like Torode also build the octopus controller for Kildall, and at
    > the time this software was written, he didn't know the I/O ports assigned
    > to channel B.
    >
    > I find this interesting because in all publications only the floppy disk
    > controller is mentioned. Well, could be expected that Torode had build
    > more hardware for Kildall, because software was his passion and hardware
    > obviously was not.
    >

    What was the Octopus controller? I wonder if it was a network
    interface?
    BTW, from Herb's references:
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/d...tml#plm_others
    "
    BYTE magazine, January 1977, p 128: "Digital Systems" small ad.
    "Floppy disk system, completely assembled unit, $1595.00...Shugart
    drives and DIGITAL SYSTEMS FDC-1 controller...interface to the Altair/
    IMSAI bus...The powerful CP/M Disk Operating System, written by the
    originator of Intel's PL/M compiler, is available for only $70.
    Systems have been operating in the field for over two years." from
    "Digital Systems, 1154 Dunsmuir PL, Livermore CA".
    "
    Note the location of Digital Systems, Livermore, CA. Nearby Lawrence
    Livermore Laboratories??

    Steve

    > ...
    >
    > > Steve

    >
    > >> Herb Johnson

    >
    > Udo Munk
    > --
    > The real fun is building it and then using it...




  12. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 22, 3:30 am, roche...@laposte.net wrote:
    > Hello, Steve!
    >
    > > Now, that is pretty conclusive, but....
    > > How is it that EBasic is public domain? Was _that_ because it was
    > > developed at a public institution? ..that is, the Naval Academy.
    > > Right here is where I'm getting confused. Was Gary teaching and
    > > consulting to Intel at the same time?

    >
    > Ok. You seem to be mixing several things. Let me clear a few.
    >
    > Gary Kildall was a teacher of Computer Science (specializing in
    > compiler writing -- his Ph.D. Thesis was about optimization of
    > compiler code). The NPS was using IBM S/360 mainframes, since cost was
    > not a matter. Before writing PL/M, he wrote another compiler (whose
    > name I have not mentioned, intentionally, over the years).
    >
    > According to legend, when Intel introduced the 8008, Gary wondered how
    > you could code Sine and Cosine subroutines using such an instruction
    > set (copied, as I have explained, from the DECsystem-10 mainframe --
    > Intel had one). Intel was also providing free systems to the NPS.
    > That's how Gary got to have an 8008 system working: it had been given
    > by Intel to the NPS.
    >
    > Back to Gordon Eubanks, now. Gordon was a student of Gary. He and 2
    > other students made a "pseudo-compiler" (I hope that you see what I
    > mean, if you are an old CP/M fan) based both on the compiler made by
    > Gary (itself based on another famous compiler) and the Dartmouth BASIC
    > (at the beginning, BASIC was compiled). The source code (in PL/M) of
    > this NBASIC (NPS BASIC) was published in Gordon's thesis.
    >
    > Gary Kildall, knowing that BASIC was popular, ported this PL/M program
    > (remember, running on the IBM S/360 of the NPS, under Interp/80) to CP/
    > M.
    >
    > It is a descendant of this port that became known as "BASIC-E". This
    > one was given for free (the binaries only) to the CP/M User's Group.
    > If you wanted, you could disassemble it, using Gordon's Thesis (I did
    > it, but the Thesis does not explain 2 programs used at the time...).
    >
    > Seeing that this freebie was popular, Gordon (who has a commercial
    > mind) set up a company (run by his Mother when he was navigating in
    > submarines) to sell the yet-another-time improved version, now called
    > "CBASIC". Most people of the time say that the "C" was standing for
    > "commercial", not "CP/M". If you have ever disassembled a PL/M
    > program, it is obvious that it is still heavily based on the previous
    > version.
    >
    > However, I must end now, since I got a message from the Southampton
    > Central Library cybercafe telling me that my connection is going to
    > close...
    >
    > Hope to have helped. (Didn't you received a CD-ROM from me? It should
    > contain some PL/M source codes...)
    >
    > Yours Sincerely,
    > Mr Emmanuel Roche


    Yes, BASIC-E, I should be more careful. But my question was about
    Gary's status during that time with the military. -while also a
    consultant? Thanks for the other details.
    Steve


  13. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 22, 10:41 am, Herb Johnson wrote:
    > On Oct 21, 12:19 am, s_dubrov...@yahoo.com wrote:
    >
    > > Hi Herb,
    > > Great summary.
    > > In addition, the reference I've mentioned regarding GK's statement of
    > > the first commercial licensing contracts of CP/M in 1975, is:
    > > DDJ Volume 5, Issue 1, Number 41 January 1980.
    > > "The Evolution of an Industry: One Person's Viewpoint" by Gary A.
    > > Kildall.
    > > with the article carrying the subtitle: 'The History of CP/M'.

    >
    > Yes, I also reference that article on my DRI Web pages. Thanks for
    > further notes on
    > the use of "Octopus" in the PL/M sources.
    >
    >

    I took a look there among your references, and they answer my question
    as to Gary's status as a Naval Officer teaching at the Naval
    Postgraduate School
    while also subcontracting as a consultant. That is how I interpret
    the following..

    "
    "High-level language simplifies microcomputer programming", by Gary A.
    Kildall, Naval Postgraduate School; Electronics magazine, June 27
    1974, pgs 103-109. Kildall discusses Intel's PL/M for the 8008 and
    8080. This was written before CP/M was completed, as Kildall makes no
    mention of any floppy disk operating systems as he does in his later
    NCC publication in arly 1975. The earlier PL/M 8008 version was
    Fortran programs PLM1 and PLM2 with 8008 interpreter Interp/8. The
    then-recent 8080 PL/M version was programs PLM81 and PLM82, with 8080
    interpreter Interp/80. An example for the 8008 version, compiled to
    run on the Intel MCS-8 development system (Intellec 8) or SIM-8 single-
    board 8008 system, is described. As with the 1975 NCC paper, Kildall
    does not take credit for Intel's PL/M.

    "Microcomputer software design - a checkpoint". Gary A Kildall, Naval
    Postgraduate School. AFIPS Conference Proceedings 1975 National
    Computer Conference (NCC). p 99-106. In his introduction, Kildall
    contrasts hardware development of microprocessors as logic elements,
    versus software development in the minicomputer world. Kildall's
    bridge between these is to use cross-products which run on minis or
    mainframes but which test or produce code for microprocessors. This
    leads to a discussion of high level-languages for microprocessors, of
    which there are only two at the time (from an independent survey). He
    mentions National Semiconductor's PL/M+ for the IMP-16 and PACE
    microcomputers, to be available in mid-1975, as "basically compatible"
    with Intel's PL/M. In the rest of the article, Kildall describes
    Intel's PL/M complier, "available since mid-1973", with an hardware
    and programming example of a diver's computer for depth and time, as
    implemented with an 8008 and later 8080. 8080 PL/M code is shown. (He
    does not take credit for either PL/M or PL/M+ in this article.)
    "
    Your citations credit Kildall of the NPS, and the dates and subjects
    indicate his work for Intel overlapping the same timeframe as his
    commisson at NPS. _IF_ the 'public domain' status of Gordon's basic
    was due to it being developed there, then, perhaps, the same argument
    befalls Gary's cp/m also. Really, that is the only avenue for a claim
    of a cp/m PD status that I can imagine, is arising from. NPS wasn't a
    public school AFAIK, but a government funded/sponsored one, maybe that
    is the issue, or not an issue. I don't know.

    I do want to discuss the military aspect alittle. I don't know how
    wide spread the Arpanet sytems was then, but I imagine that LLL and
    Argonne National Labs were linked. The Intel Fortran source to PL/M
    indicated that that copy came from ANL. If the NPS was also linked in
    then it was a small world back then. Maybe even Intel was linked in,
    if they were also doing government contracts, which I imagine was
    possible. Maybe the LLL V.3 CP/M was pilfered off arpanet back then.

    Steve

    >
    >
    >
    > > "... The first commercial licensing of CP/M took place in
    > > 1975 with contracts between Digital Systems and Omron of America for
    > > use in their intelligent terminal, and with Lawrence Livermore
    > > Laboratories where CP/M was used to monitor programs in the Octopus
    > > network."

    >

    [snipped]
    >
    > I think the mere fact that EBASIC was developed as a master's thesis
    > at the Naval
    > Postgraduate School, is not sufficient for it to have become "public
    > domain". One way or
    > another, Eubanks seems to have cooperated with BASIC-E becoming in the
    > public domain.
    > He acknowledges that situation in a number of interviews, as well as
    > the situation in which
    > he wrote CBASIC as a COMMERCIAL product for his own company, and for
    > IMSAI.
    >
    > But, I've found NO references by Kildall about any version of CP/M
    > being put into the "public domain".
    > No suggestions of this by him have surfaced. And the ONE instance
    > where SOMEONE put his
    > CP/M code into a public venue - CPMUG disk #5 - it appears that source
    > was "yanked" early on. I'm trying to
    > find out HOW early, but Jeffrey suggests it was pretty early.
    >
    > For reference, my on-line document notes that CPMUG disk #5 contains
    > files with embedded dates of
    > Aug and Sept 1977. Disks #6 and #4 have dates within months of that
    > range. These facts suggest that CPMUG disk #5 was compiled something
    > in mid-1977. Somewhere, there is an article published in 1977 that
    > says when CPMUG disk #5 was "released". But Jeffrey Shook's post
    > reminds us that CPMUG was rather informal and local at the time, disks
    > were passed around or mailed, so a "release date" may be not in fact
    > exist!
    >
    > Herb Johnson
    >
    > Herbert R. Johnson New Jersey USAhttp://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web sitehttp://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    > my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    > if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    > "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    > S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -




  14. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:46:34 -0700, s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:

    >On Oct 21, 11:09 am, Udo Munk wrote:
    >> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:19:12 -0700, s_dubrovich wrote:
    >> > On Oct 20, 12:57 am, Herb Johnson wrote:

    >>
    >> ...
    >> ...
    >>
    >> > I believe 'Octopus' is a word which is found in the PL/M
    >> > sources..yes..
    >> > "
    >> > /* FUNC IS THE DISK MONITOR FUNCTION NUMBER AS SHOWN BELOW:
    >> > 0: SYSTEM RESET
    >> > 1: READ CONSOLE DEVICE
    >> > 2: WRITE CONSOLE DEVICE
    >> > 3: READ OCTOPUS
    >> > 4: WRITE OCTOPUS
    >> > "
    >> > ...
    >> > There you have it.

    >>
    >> One could quote a more interesting part of that source with regards
    >> to the octopus:
    >>

    >
    >Yes, there also.
    >
    >> DECLARE
    >> /* TELETYPE DECLARATIONS */
    >> TTI LITERALLY '0',
    >> TTO LITERALLY '0',
    >> TTS LITERALLY '1',
    >> TTC LITERALLY '1',
    >> /* CRT DECLARATIONS (NOTE CONFLICT WITH OCTOPUS)*/
    >> CTI LITERALLY '4',
    >> CTO LITERALLY '4',
    >> CTS LITERALLY '5',
    >> /* OCTOPUS DECLARATIONS */
    >> /* (CHECK WITH TORODE FOR CHANNEL B ASSIGNMENTS) */
    >> OAI LITERALLY '4',
    >> OAO LITERALLY '4',
    >> OAS LITERALLY '5',
    >> OBI LITERALLY '6',
    >> OBO LITERALLY '6',
    >> OBS LITERALLY '7',
    >>
    >> Looks like Torode also build the octopus controller for Kildall, and at
    >> the time this software was written, he didn't know the I/O ports assigned
    >> to channel B.
    >>
    >> I find this interesting because in all publications only the floppy disk
    >> controller is mentioned. Well, could be expected that Torode had build
    >> more hardware for Kildall, because software was his passion and hardware
    >> obviously was not.
    >>

    >What was the Octopus controller? I wonder if it was a network
    >interface?


    I always though it was the IO board used in the MDS800. It
    had several different IOs for things like punch/reader, UPP,
    printer (centronics IO), 1200 baud serial IO video display
    and keyboard.


    >BTW, from Herb's references:
    >http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/d...tml#plm_others
    >"
    >BYTE magazine, January 1977, p 128: "Digital Systems" small ad.
    >"Floppy disk system, completely assembled unit, $1595.00...Shugart
    >drives and DIGITAL SYSTEMS FDC-1 controller...interface to the Altair/
    >IMSAI bus...The powerful CP/M Disk Operating System, written by the
    >originator of Intel's PL/M compiler, is available for only $70.
    >Systems have been operating in the field for over two years." from
    >"Digital Systems, 1154 Dunsmuir PL, Livermore CA".
    >"
    >Note the location of Digital Systems, Livermore, CA. Nearby Lawrence
    >Livermore Laboratories??


    This occured fairly frequently. The intersection of brains, available
    students and the like.

    Allison

  15. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:38:42 +0000, no.spam wrote:

    > On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:46:34 -0700, s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:
    >
    >>On Oct 21, 11:09 am, Udo Munk wrote:
    >>> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:19:12 -0700, s_dubrovich wrote:
    >>> > On Oct 20, 12:57 am, Herb Johnson wrote:
    >>>
    >>> ...
    >>> ...
    >>> DECLARE
    >>> /* TELETYPE DECLARATIONS */
    >>> TTI LITERALLY '0',
    >>> TTO LITERALLY '0',
    >>> TTS LITERALLY '1',
    >>> TTC LITERALLY '1',
    >>> /* CRT DECLARATIONS (NOTE CONFLICT WITH OCTOPUS)*/
    >>> CTI LITERALLY '4',
    >>> CTO LITERALLY '4',
    >>> CTS LITERALLY '5',
    >>> /* OCTOPUS DECLARATIONS */
    >>> /* (CHECK WITH TORODE FOR CHANNEL B ASSIGNMENTS) */
    >>> OAI LITERALLY '4',
    >>> OAO LITERALLY '4',
    >>> OAS LITERALLY '5',
    >>> OBI LITERALLY '6',
    >>> OBO LITERALLY '6',
    >>> OBS LITERALLY '7',
    >>>
    >>> Looks like Torode also build the octopus controller for Kildall, and at
    >>> the time this software was written, he didn't know the I/O ports assigned
    >>> to channel B.
    >>>
    >>> I find this interesting because in all publications only the floppy disk
    >>> controller is mentioned. Well, could be expected that Torode had build
    >>> more hardware for Kildall, because software was his passion and hardware
    >>> obviously was not.
    >>>

    >>What was the Octopus controller? I wonder if it was a network
    >>interface?

    >
    > I always though it was the IO board used in the MDS800. It
    > had several different IOs for things like punch/reader, UPP,
    > printer (centronics IO), 1200 baud serial IO video display
    > and keyboard.

    ....
    > Allison


    Source is from 1975, I think the MDS800 came out later, system probably
    was a MCS-80 at that time. On the CPU bus side it looks like an UART with
    one status register and one data register, that can be seen from the BIOS
    source. What kind of hardware was on the other end, I don't know. I don't
    think that it was one of the Intel standard I/O boards, because I/O
    addresses for those were in the manuals and Kildall won't have to ask
    Torode about it.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  16. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 18:48:15 -0400, Jeffrey W. Shook wrote:

    ....
    > To run LOAD:
    > 1) Change the 0FAH: at the start of LOAD.PLM to 0100H:.
    > Otherwise DDT and SID won't load it.
    > 2) If no file is specified LOAD switches to input from
    > READER and cannot be terminated.

    ....

    With Jeffrey's informations about the missing source part I was able to
    get it working on my z80pack emulation too. If you want to try that, here
    some more hints.

    This line must be modified:

    0FAH: DECLARE BDOS LITERALLY '3FFDH';

    to:

    100H: DECLARE BDOS LITERALLY '5';

    because your BDOS entry most likely is not at 3FFD and I don't know which
    loader would load a hex file correctly originated at 00FA, I tried a few.

    Now, if you would run that program, it would do nothing and just return,
    because that program basically is:

    PROGRAM
    PROCEDURE LOADCOM;
    ...
    END LOADCOM;
    END PROGRAM

    This is an empty main program with a procedure that never is called, so it
    doesn't do anything.

    The reason it is originated at 00FA is how the PL/M compiler builds a
    program. Any PL/M program starts with:

    0100 LXI SP,XXXX
    0103 JMP YYYY

    They wanted this one to return to ccp without a warmboot, so they got rid
    of the compiler initialization by deleting the first 6 bytes of the
    program, and making PROCEDURE LOADCOM the entry. And that's what you need
    to do too, load the compiled program into ddt and patch first 6 bytes with
    NOP instruction.

    Because z80pack CP/M emulation includes a paper tape reader, I was able to
    verify that this part works too, but...

    Program used without filename, so it creates a file with 8 spaces as
    filename part and COM as extension. Under CP/M 2 ccp all one can do is
    delete it with era ?.com, hopefully without erasing some more files.
    The 1975 ccp will let one do this: REN NEW.COM=?.COM, won't work with CP/M
    2.2 ccp.

    Program misbehaves if the reader is not ready and just sends ^Z, it
    insists on getting some hex until an end record and so it loops forever.
    Later versions of pip will stop on ^Z.

    Well, this program certainly leaves room for some improvement...

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  17. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:20:40 +0200, Udo Munk
    wrote:

    >On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:38:42 +0000, no.spam wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:46:34 -0700, s_dubrovich@yahoo.com wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Oct 21, 11:09 am, Udo Munk wrote:
    >>>> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:19:12 -0700, s_dubrovich wrote:
    >>>> > On Oct 20, 12:57 am, Herb Johnson wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> ...
    >>>> ...
    >>>> DECLARE
    >>>> /* TELETYPE DECLARATIONS */
    >>>> TTI LITERALLY '0',
    >>>> TTO LITERALLY '0',
    >>>> TTS LITERALLY '1',
    >>>> TTC LITERALLY '1',
    >>>> /* CRT DECLARATIONS (NOTE CONFLICT WITH OCTOPUS)*/
    >>>> CTI LITERALLY '4',
    >>>> CTO LITERALLY '4',
    >>>> CTS LITERALLY '5',
    >>>> /* OCTOPUS DECLARATIONS */
    >>>> /* (CHECK WITH TORODE FOR CHANNEL B ASSIGNMENTS) */
    >>>> OAI LITERALLY '4',
    >>>> OAO LITERALLY '4',
    >>>> OAS LITERALLY '5',
    >>>> OBI LITERALLY '6',
    >>>> OBO LITERALLY '6',
    >>>> OBS LITERALLY '7',
    >>>>
    >>>> Looks like Torode also build the octopus controller for Kildall, and at
    >>>> the time this software was written, he didn't know the I/O ports assigned
    >>>> to channel B.
    >>>>
    >>>> I find this interesting because in all publications only the floppy disk
    >>>> controller is mentioned. Well, could be expected that Torode had build
    >>>> more hardware for Kildall, because software was his passion and hardware
    >>>> obviously was not.
    >>>>
    >>>What was the Octopus controller? I wonder if it was a network
    >>>interface?

    >>
    >> I always though it was the IO board used in the MDS800. It
    >> had several different IOs for things like punch/reader, UPP,
    >> printer (centronics IO), 1200 baud serial IO video display
    >> and keyboard.

    >...
    >> Allison

    >
    >Source is from 1975, I think the MDS800 came out later, system probably
    >was a MCS-80 at that time. On the CPU bus side it looks like an UART with
    >one status register and one data register, that can be seen from the BIOS
    >source. What kind of hardware was on the other end, I don't know. I don't
    >think that it was one of the Intel standard I/O boards, because I/O
    >addresses for those were in the manuals and Kildall won't have to ask
    >Torode about it.
    >
    >Udo Munk


    MDS800 was in development then. MCS80 was first and early but didn't
    have the resources for much.

    Allison

  18. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:55:47 +0200, Udo Munk wrote:
    ....
    > Program used without filename, so it creates a file with 8 spaces as
    > filename part and COM as extension. Under CP/M 2 ccp all one can do is
    > delete it with era ?.com, hopefully without erasing some more files.
    > The 1975 ccp will let one do this: REN NEW.COM=?.COM, won't work with CP/M
    > 2.2 ccp.

    ....

    This program also switches to read reader if input file not found, and
    then it uses the new file for output from the reader input.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  19. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:55:47 +0200, Udo Munk wrote:

    ....
    > This line must be modified:
    >
    > 0FAH: DECLARE BDOS LITERALLY '3FFDH';
    >
    > to:
    >
    > 100H: DECLARE BDOS LITERALLY '5';
    >
    > because your BDOS entry most likely is not at 3FFD and I don't know which
    > loader would load a hex file correctly originated at 00FA, I tried a few.

    ....

    Actually this loader can load itself originated at 00FA and cuts off the
    first 6 bytes. Just tried and works, interesting.

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  20. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 22, 8:41 pm, s_dubrov...@yahoo.com wrote:

    > I took a look there among your references, and they answer my question
    > as to Gary's status as a Naval Officer teaching at the Naval
    > Postgraduate School
    > while also subcontracting as a consultant. That is how I interpret
    > the following..
    >
    > "
    > "High-level language simplifies microcomputer programming", by Gary A.
    > Kildall, Naval Postgraduate School; Electronics magazine, June 27
    > 1974, pgs 103-109.


    Kildall wrote an article about PL/M 8008 and PL/M 8080 from Intel. He
    did not mention that he wrote those products. He was a professor and
    naval officer at the time.

    > "Microcomputer software design - a checkpoint". Gary A Kildall, Naval
    > Postgraduate School. AFIPS Conference Proceedings 1975 National
    > Computer Conference (NCC). p 99-106.


    Kildall reviews the work of he and his NPS students on using PL/M to
    create a diving computer device; and the value of high-level language
    development for microprocessors.

    Steve, glad I could illuminate Kildall's early history in a documented
    fashion.

    > Your citations credit Kildall of the NPS, and the dates and subjects
    > indicate his work for Intel overlapping the same timeframe as his
    > commisson at NPS. _IF_ the 'public domain' status of Gordon's basic
    > was due to it being developed there, then, perhaps, the same argument
    > befalls Gary's cp/m also. Really, that is the only avenue for a claim
    > of a cp/m PD status that I can imagine, is arising from. NPS wasn't a
    > public school AFAIK, but a government funded/sponsored one, maybe that
    > is the issue, or not an issue. I don't know.


    Steve, the facts about Kildall's employment, and Gordon Eubank's, are
    available. Both were Naval officers. Both did work at a university,
    the Naval Postgraduate School. Eubanks was Kildall's MS student. Both
    did some consulting work with their own little companies while at the
    NPS. Both left the Navy and the NPS and then started companies and
    sold software products.

    Now, I am not a laywer, and neither are you (my apologies). I simply
    don't know what to make of claims something like this:

    Someone worked for the government.
    He or she wrote some software during that time while working for the
    government.
    Therefore, that work is in the public domain.

    Or, the same claims about "working for a publically funded
    university". Frankly, I doubt this holds as a general argument. My
    University professors in the 1970's also did consulting work - I doubt
    their paying clients would permit that work to be released to the
    public, I doubt the university had issues with this. But ASK A LAWYER,
    not some bunch of techies - it's a LEGAL argument! And, it's about
    practices in the 1970's, not today - tell the lawyer that too.

    Here are facts and statements from Kildall and Eubanks, as available
    to me, about "public domain" releases of their work.

    Eubanks in interviews did not challenge anything about the release of
    BASIC-E into the public domain - he acknowledged that as a fact. I
    have not checked his thesis to see if it says "and this work is in the
    public domain". He wrote CBASIC to have a LICENSEABLE version of
    BASIC! - he said this.

    By contrast, I have see NO INFORMATION that Kildall willfully put some
    PL/M code of CP/M into any public release. Kildall says he LICENSED
    early versions - an opportunity to say something about a public
    release of code - and he said nothing about public release.
    Circumstantial evidence says SOMEONE put early PL/M CP/M code into
    CPMUG disk #5, and someone else removed it. Don't know exactly when
    either event occurred, but personal accounts and document dates help
    to narrow the possible range.

    > I do want to discuss the military aspect alittle. I don't know how
    > wide spread the Arpanet sytems was then...[Steve suggests the PLM
    > may have been distributed via the Arpanet.


    There were also networks like BITNET between universities. Probably
    others...

    CPMUG disk #5 - the only documented source for a "public" release of
    CP/M source - was not created before mid-1977, CPMUG did not exist
    before 1977, according to dates in files and documents. Two years is
    plenty of time for copies of 1975 code to be passed around. Probably
    someone's diskette, in 1977 there were a few standard formats around -
    and use of serial-connected computers to get between formats.

    Someone who was involved early with CPMUG will have some answers; IF
    they remember what happened over some IMSAI, THIRTY TWO YEARS ago!
    THAT is what I'd like to hear about. Jeff Shook's remarks were very
    much appreciated about his CPMUG experience, if he can date that so
    much the better!

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


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