PL/M sources for old CP/M? - CP/M

This is a discussion on PL/M sources for old CP/M? - CP/M ; On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:12:02 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > Herb Johnson wrote: > > (snip) > >> Steve, the facts about Kildall's employment, and Gordon Eubank's, are >> available. Both were Naval officers. Both did work at a ...

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Thread: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

  1. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:12:02 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

    > Herb Johnson wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    >> Steve, the facts about Kildall's employment, and Gordon Eubank's, are
    >> available. Both were Naval officers. Both did work at a university,
    >> the Naval Postgraduate School. Eubanks was Kildall's MS student. Both
    >> did some consulting work with their own little companies while at the
    >> NPS. Both left the Navy and the NPS and then started companies and
    >> sold software products.

    >
    >> Now, I am not a laywer, and neither are you (my apologies). I simply
    >> don't know what to make of claims something like this:

    >
    > There are some restrictions on work funded by the US government.
    > I am not a lawyer, either, though. It might be that it is just
    > free for government agencies.
    >
    >> Someone worked for the government.
    >> He or she wrote some software during that time while working for the
    >> government. Therefore, that work is in the public domain.

    >
    >> Or, the same claims about "working for a publically funded
    >> university". Frankly, I doubt this holds as a general argument. My
    >> University professors in the 1970's also did consulting work - I doubt
    >> their paying clients would permit that work to be released to the
    >> public, I doubt the university had issues with this. But ASK A LAWYER,
    >> not some bunch of techies - it's a LEGAL argument! And, it's about
    >> practices in the 1970's, not today - tell the lawyer that too.

    >
    > Some universities, likely more now than in the 1970's, assume
    > any work related to the university work belongs to the
    > university. If an english professor wrote a compiler, there
    > would not likely be much of a question about selling it.
    > It would be different for a CS professor.
    >
    > -- glen


    Wasn't Bill Gates forced to release sources of an early BASIC interpreter
    by his university, so that he quit, to be free to develop a commercial
    one, that could be sold?

    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  2. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    Herb Johnson wrote:

    (snip)

    > Steve, the facts about Kildall's employment, and Gordon Eubank's, are
    > available. Both were Naval officers. Both did work at a university,
    > the Naval Postgraduate School. Eubanks was Kildall's MS student. Both
    > did some consulting work with their own little companies while at the
    > NPS. Both left the Navy and the NPS and then started companies and
    > sold software products.


    > Now, I am not a laywer, and neither are you (my apologies). I simply
    > don't know what to make of claims something like this:


    There are some restrictions on work funded by the US government.
    I am not a lawyer, either, though. It might be that it is just
    free for government agencies.

    > Someone worked for the government.
    > He or she wrote some software during that time while working for the
    > government. Therefore, that work is in the public domain.


    > Or, the same claims about "working for a publically funded
    > university". Frankly, I doubt this holds as a general argument. My
    > University professors in the 1970's also did consulting work - I doubt
    > their paying clients would permit that work to be released to the
    > public, I doubt the university had issues with this. But ASK A LAWYER,
    > not some bunch of techies - it's a LEGAL argument! And, it's about
    > practices in the 1970's, not today - tell the lawyer that too.


    Some universities, likely more now than in the 1970's, assume
    any work related to the university work belongs to the
    university. If an english professor wrote a compiler, there
    would not likely be much of a question about selling it.
    It would be different for a CS professor.

    -- glen


  3. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Oct 23, 4:12 pm, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    > Herb Johnson wrote:
    >
    > (snip)
    >
    > > Steve, the facts about Kildall's employment, and Gordon Eubank's, are
    > > available. Both were Naval officers. Both did work at a university,
    > > the Naval Postgraduate School. Eubanks was Kildall's MS student. Both
    > > did some consulting work with their own little companies while at the
    > > NPS. Both left the Navy and the NPS and then started companies and
    > > sold software products.
    > > Now, I am not a laywer, and neither are you (my apologies). I simply
    > > don't know what to make of claims something like this:

    >
    > There are some restrictions on work funded by the US government.
    > I am not a lawyer, either, though. It might be that it is just
    > free for government agencies.
    >
    > > Someone worked for the government.
    > > He or she wrote some software during that time while working for the
    > > government. Therefore, that work is in the public domain.
    > > Or, the same claims about "working for a publically funded
    > > university". Frankly, I doubt this holds as a general argument. My
    > > University professors in the 1970's also did consulting work - I doubt
    > > their paying clients would permit that work to be released to the
    > > public, I doubt the university had issues with this. But ASK A LAWYER,
    > > not some bunch of techies - it's a LEGAL argument! And, it's about
    > > practices in the 1970's, not today - tell the lawyer that too.

    >
    > Some universities, likely more now than in the 1970's, assume
    > any work related to the university work belongs to the
    > university. If an english professor wrote a compiler, there
    > would not likely be much of a question about selling it.
    > It would be different for a CS professor.
    >
    > -- glen


    Glen, here's the facts. Kildall wrote PL/M for Intel. No one to my
    knowledge has claimed
    PL/M was or is in the "public domain". Eubanks wrote CBASIC while
    still a Naval officer
    (Kildall was a Naval officer) - it's not in the "public domain".
    Eubanks apparently allowed (or
    encouraged) BASIC-E, his master thesis' work under Kildall, into the
    public domain.

    So I don't see the the point of arguing in general, when there are
    SPECIFIC CASES already
    as verifiable facts. Kildall COULD own and license to others, work he
    did for others. So did
    his colleague and student Gordon Eubanks, who ALSO had some of his
    work put into
    the public domain. The details of BASIC-E's release may be informative
    - I don't know them,
    I can't chase down everything! Did some company challenge whether PL/
    M or CP/M or CBASIC
    should have been in the public domain - I don't know that either!

    The loose end I"m more interested in? How did some version of CP/M
    source code, end up in
    a "public domain" diskette, CPMUG disk #5 - code which was
    subsequently deleted? That deletion
    suggests it should NOT have been released. But that depends on what
    actually happened.

    I don't want to speculate. I don't want to be a lawyer! I want to know
    the facts!

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/ web site
    http://www.retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/ domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  4. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    NO. Definitely no on that one.

    Udo Munk wrote:
    > On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:12:02 -0800, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
    >
    > Wasn't Bill Gates forced to release sources of an early BASIC interpreter
    > by his university, so that he quit, to be free to develop a commercial
    > one, that could be sold?
    >
    > Udo Munk


  5. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:57:02 -0700, Herb Johnson wrote:

    ....
    > Bottom line: online copies of CPMUG disk #5 don't have these old PLM
    > files, and
    > other copies online of these files are missing or corrupt. If anyone
    > has an OLD disk
    > of CPMUG #5, please offer the PLM files to me, or to Udo Munk, or to
    > Gaby at the
    > "unofficial CP/M Web site"; and also tell me when and where you got
    > that disk!

    ....

    I have put the original files as well as my own working copies of ccp.plm
    and load.plm at http://www.unix4fun.org/z80pack/

    Enjoy,
    Udo Munk
    --
    The real fun is building it and then using it...


  6. Re: PL/M sources for old CP/M?

    EBASDDJ.WS4
    -----------

    - "Notes on CP/M's BASIC-E"
    Gordon E. Eubanks, Jr.
    DDJ, #19, Vol.2, No.9, October 1977, p.35

    (Retyped by Emmanuel ROCHE.)


    Dear Mr. Warren,

    I would like to give you and your readers some
    background on the current status of a public domain disk BASIC
    known as BASIC-E. BASIC-E was developed at the Navy Postgraduate
    School, Monterey, California for my Masters thesis. The
    implementation is comprised of two subsystems, a compiler which
    generates code for a hypothetical stack machine, and a run-time
    monitor which interprets this code. The systems was written in
    PL/M, and runs with Digital Research's CP/M.

    BASIC-E provides standard Floating-Point arithmetic
    processing features following the proposed ANSI standard.
    Additional extensions include multi-dimensional numeric and
    string arrays, logical operators (AND, OR, XOR, NOT), and string
    processing. Also, disk support methods include sequential and
    random access to files. Strings are dynamically allocated as
    required, and may contain up to 255 characters. Concatenation
    and all standard functions are implemented. Logical operations
    use 32-bit two's complement binary representation of the integer
    portion of the variables. Files may be organized as either
    sequential or direct. Sequential files are a linear sequence of
    data items. Each reference to a sequential file retrieves the
    next data item, or writes another data item. A file may also be
    declared with a user-selected blocksize. These files may be
    accessed either sequentially or randomly.

    The original version (version 1) was distributed by a
    number of companies, including IMSAI and Digital Systems. There
    were several bugs in version 1 of BASIC-E. They involved file
    operations, string processing, and some of the predefined
    functions! Also, because of the nature of the Floating-Point
    package, integer numbers were often printed out with an error in
    the seventh digit. I have subsequently fixed the known bugs in
    version 1, and released version 2 of BASIC-E. Both versions are
    completely in the public domain. Version 2 fixes the integer
    problem mentioned above by printing only six digits of the seven
    which are maintained internally. Unfortunately, there are still
    copies of version 2 in use which have not had the integer
    problem corrected. Structured Systems Group has a patched
    version of BASIC-E which retains 7 digits without the integer
    problem (version K2.0 of the run-time package).

    I strongly recommend that anyone using BASIC-E obtain a
    copy of version 2. It is available through several distributors
    and at many retail outlets. I would be glad to provide a copy to
    dealers who need one for $30 copy charge. The source is also
    available in machine readable form for a $50 copy charge.

    I would like to thank the many people who have shown an
    interest in BASIC-E and, by using it, helped debug it. Special
    thanks go to Gary Kildall of Digital Research for converting it
    to the resident PL/M, and to Alan Cooper and Keith Parsons of
    Structured Systems Group who managed to find that last elusive
    bug.


    EOF



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