Newbie Question - CP/M

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  1. Newbie Question

    Hey. I was born way too late for CP/M, but I have heard a lot about
    it, and wanted to get a good emulator of it working. What is the best
    way to do this while working within Windows or Linux? At the very
    least, I'd like to archive all the CP/M software available so I can
    tinker with it when I get more knowledgable about programming.

    Thank you.
    -Loknar

    PS: I always wonder what would have happened if IBM took up Kildall
    instead of Gates.


  2. Re: Newbie Question

    In article <1150538077.473886.136000@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups. com>,
    "Loknar" wrote:

    > Hey. I was born way too late for CP/M, but I have heard a lot about
    > it, and wanted to get a good emulator of it working. What is the best
    > way to do this while working within Windows or Linux? At the very
    > least, I'd like to archive all the CP/M software available so I can
    > tinker with it when I get more knowledgable about programming.
    >
    > Thank you.
    > -Loknar
    >
    > PS: I always wonder what would have happened if IBM took up Kildall
    > instead of Gates.


    took up kildall?

    They were sell both MSDOS and CP/M early on, but someone worked hard to
    kill CP/M sales. I bet some sort of kickback on Microsoft's part, but
    impossible to prove.

  3. Re: Newbie Question

    "ziggy" wrote in message
    news:ziggy-3FDEDB.14443017062006@news.isp.giganews.com...
    > In article <1150538077.473886.136000@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups. com>,
    > "Loknar" wrote:
    > > PS: I always wonder what would have happened if IBM took up Kildall
    > > instead of Gates.

    >
    > took up kildall?
    >
    > They were sell both MSDOS and CP/M early on, but someone worked hard to
    > kill CP/M sales. I bet some sort of kickback on Microsoft's part, but
    > impossible to prove.


    MS-DOS was included for $40.
    CP/M was available for $240.

    It was, for most PC buyers, a "no brainer" decision.

    - Bill



  4. Re: Newbie Question

    > What is the best
    > way to do this while working within Windows or Linux? At the very
    > least, I'd like to archive all the CP/M software available so I can
    > tinker with it when I get more knowledgable about programming.


    There are a variety of emulators available.

    One which works identically under both isthe AltairZ80 simulator,
    available as part of the SIMH package:
    http://simh.trailing-edge.com
    Binaries for windows, and one of the lightest, quickest
    compiles for Linux I've seen.

    For a more comprehensive list of some of the friendlier, and
    free, emulators, check Gaby's site:
    http://www.gaby.de/ehome.htm

    She has really done a lot for me,
    and (I believe) for the community.
    She has taken over maintainence of the
    Thomas Scherrer Z80 website, an
    excellent source on a popular processor which
    supported CP/M. Some poking around will lead you
    to the emulators section.

    Under Unix/Linux, there is also YAZE,
    Y_et A_nother Z_80 E_mulator, found
    here:
    http://www.mathematik.uni-ulm.de/users/ag/yaze-ag/


    HTH

    > Thank you.


    You're welcome,
    Tarkin


  5. Re: Newbie Question

    On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400, "William J. Leary Jr."
    wrote:

    >"ziggy" wrote in message
    >news:ziggy-3FDEDB.14443017062006@news.isp.giganews.com...
    >> In article <1150538077.473886.136000@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups. com>,
    >> "Loknar" wrote:
    >> > PS: I always wonder what would have happened if IBM took up Kildall
    >> > instead of Gates.

    >>
    >> took up kildall?
    >>
    >> They were sell both MSDOS and CP/M early on, but someone worked hard to
    >> kill CP/M sales. I bet some sort of kickback on Microsoft's part, but
    >> impossible to prove.

    >
    >MS-DOS was included for $40.
    >CP/M was available for $240.
    >
    >It was, for most PC buyers, a "no brainer" decision.
    >
    > - Bill
    >


    Well, you were close anyway. I was working in QA at NCR Ithaca at the
    time (1981-85). We evaluated our hardware (which later became the
    PC-4) using MS-DOS 2.0, CP/M-86 and CCP/M (Concurrent CP/M). We also
    used Flight Simulator, which was a self boot package at the time, it
    did not run on top of DOS. The prices for the three basic OS kits
    were:

    MS-DOS 2.0 US$ 35.00
    CP/M-86 US$ 225.00
    CCP/M US$ 275.00

    All of the standard applications were available for each of those
    three systems, for the same price. i.e. WordStar cost US$65.00, no
    matter which of the three boxes you picked up.

    Each of the DRI systems was superior to MS-DOS, but nobody, and I do
    mean nobody, wanted to pay that premium, no matter how much better the
    OS was. (CCP/M allowed us to run as many as five applications at a
    time, long before anybody else could do multi-tasking on a PC.)

    My understanding was that DRI never expected to sell more than a few
    hundred systems, and didn't want to undercut their CP/M-80 sales, so
    they kept the price high enough to cover their development costs. But
    Bill, not having a competing product in the market, priced his
    software much lower, fully expecting to sell thousands of copies. He
    got lucky, which some people have since decided makes him a genius.

    In those early years, you didn't get an OS with the computer, you had
    to pruchase and install it from the diskette on your own. The
    installation process consisted of a handful of comand lines printed in
    the manual.

    Bob McConnell
    N2SPP


  6. Re: Newbie Question

    DRI had nothing to do with it.

    IBM wanted to offer MS-DOS only, but DR threatened to sue if CP/M-86 was
    not offered, so it was offered at a very high price. DR was not happy,
    and ultimately, DR came out with their own retail-boxed CP/M-86 for the
    IBM-PC for $40. But the damage was done, and CP/M-86 on the PC was
    essentially dead. I still have a couple of the DR $40 retail boxes,
    new, still shrink-wrapped.

    [I was the product line director for Zenith Data Systems at the time and
    personally knew both Bill Gates and Gary Kildall.]


    Bob McConnell wrote:
    > On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400, "William J. Leary Jr."
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >>"ziggy" wrote in message
    >>news:ziggy-3FDEDB.14443017062006@news.isp.giganews.com...
    >>
    >>>In article <1150538077.473886.136000@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups. com>,
    >>> "Loknar" wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>PS: I always wonder what would have happened if IBM took up Kildall
    >>>>instead of Gates.
    >>>
    >>>took up kildall?
    >>>
    >>>They were sell both MSDOS and CP/M early on, but someone worked hard to
    >>>kill CP/M sales. I bet some sort of kickback on Microsoft's part, but
    >>>impossible to prove.

    >>
    >>MS-DOS was included for $40.
    >>CP/M was available for $240.
    >>
    >>It was, for most PC buyers, a "no brainer" decision.
    >>
    >> - Bill
    >>

    >
    >
    > Well, you were close anyway. I was working in QA at NCR Ithaca at the
    > time (1981-85). We evaluated our hardware (which later became the
    > PC-4) using MS-DOS 2.0, CP/M-86 and CCP/M (Concurrent CP/M). We also
    > used Flight Simulator, which was a self boot package at the time, it
    > did not run on top of DOS. The prices for the three basic OS kits
    > were:
    >
    > MS-DOS 2.0 US$ 35.00
    > CP/M-86 US$ 225.00
    > CCP/M US$ 275.00
    >
    > All of the standard applications were available for each of those
    > three systems, for the same price. i.e. WordStar cost US$65.00, no
    > matter which of the three boxes you picked up.
    >
    > Each of the DRI systems was superior to MS-DOS, but nobody, and I do
    > mean nobody, wanted to pay that premium, no matter how much better the
    > OS was. (CCP/M allowed us to run as many as five applications at a
    > time, long before anybody else could do multi-tasking on a PC.)
    >
    > My understanding was that DRI never expected to sell more than a few
    > hundred systems, and didn't want to undercut their CP/M-80 sales, so
    > they kept the price high enough to cover their development costs. But
    > Bill, not having a competing product in the market, priced his
    > software much lower, fully expecting to sell thousands of copies. He
    > got lucky, which some people have since decided makes him a genius.
    >
    > In those early years, you didn't get an OS with the computer, you had
    > to pruchase and install it from the diskette on your own. The
    > installation process consisted of a handful of comand lines printed in
    > the manual.
    >
    > Bob McConnell
    > N2SPP
    >


  7. Re: Newbie Question

    On 17 Jun 2006 02:54:37 -0700, "Loknar" wrote:

    >Hey. I was born way too late for CP/M, but I have heard a lot about
    >it, and wanted to get a good emulator of it working. What is the best
    >way to do this while working within Windows or Linux? At the very
    >least, I'd like to archive all the CP/M software available so I can
    >tinker with it when I get more knowledgable about programming.


    There are a few of them.

    MyZ80 runs under dos and most MS OS. (it emulates a z80 CP/m3 system).
    SIMH can emulate anything when configured.
    Dave Dunfield has a Altair/North*Star Horizon emulater that also runs
    CP/M.

    There are more but thats a start.

    Allison

    >Thank you.
    >-Loknar
    >
    >PS: I always wonder what would have happened if IBM took up Kildall
    >instead of Gates.


    Billy G would have lost as they were a language/apps house up till
    then and depended on CP/M for the OS lead. Of course then the
    copyright and copyprevention world would look different. But as
    they say, only speculation as it didn't happen.



  8. Re: Newbie Question

    "Bob McConnell" wrote in message
    news:5nkb9253ueql4o2tk69skq01pqm9s3904q@4ax.com...
    > On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400, "William J. Leary Jr."
    > wrote:
    > >MS-DOS was included for $40.
    > >CP/M was available for $240.
    > >
    > >It was, for most PC buyers, a "no brainer" decision.
    > >

    >
    > Well, you were close anyway. I was working in QA at NCR Ithaca at the
    > time (1981-85). We evaluated our hardware (which later became the
    > PC-4) using MS-DOS 2.0, CP/M-86 and CCP/M (Concurrent CP/M). We also
    > used Flight Simulator, which was a self boot package at the time, it
    > did not run on top of DOS. The prices for the three basic OS kits
    > were:
    >
    > MS-DOS 2.0 US$ 35.00
    > CP/M-86 US$ 225.00
    > CCP/M US$ 275.00


    PC-DOS (sorry for the typo above) was 1.0 or 1.1 upon release of the PC (5150)
    back in 1981.

    As I recall PC-DOS 2.0 and MS-DOS 2.0 came out in conjunction with the PC/XT
    (5160) in early 1983. CCP/M came out that fall.

    And I can't say what discounts may have been available through various means.
    The items I quoted were the list prices I noted while shopping at the only
    computer store in the area. But even give your prices, it still worked out to
    a "no brainer" for the average PC buyer and probably even more so for a
    business buyer. If you're buying ten machines, do you pay $400 ($350) or
    $2,400 ($2,250) for the OS? Especially when that $2,000 ($1,900) could be
    better spent on applications software.

    > All of the standard applications were available for each of those
    > three systems, for the same price. i.e. WordStar cost US$65.00, no
    > matter which of the three boxes you picked up.


    I seem to recall that being the case, though I also recall that pretty much
    everything came out on PC/MS-DOS first, and CP/M later. Sometimes much later.

    > Each of the DRI systems was superior to MS-DOS, but nobody, and I do
    > mean nobody, wanted to pay that premium, no matter how much better the
    > OS was.


    Which was my point.

    > (CCP/M allowed us to run as many as five applications at a
    > time, long before anybody else could do multi-tasking on a PC.)


    I thought it was four, but it's been a while. Or maybe it was the machine I
    was using at the time limited it to four.

    > My understanding was that DRI never expected to sell more than a few
    > hundred systems, and didn't want to undercut their CP/M-80 sales, so
    > they kept the price high enough to cover their development costs.


    I've read numerous takes on this, and the above is certainly one of the more
    wide spread.

    > But
    > Bill, not having a competing product in the market, priced his
    > software much lower, fully expecting to sell thousands of copies. He
    > got lucky, which some people have since decided makes him a genius.


    I've heard this too. I don't recall either of these being touted at the time
    (say, '84 or '85). They seemed to become lore (note: I didn't say "folklore,"
    "lore" can be true) in the later '80's and stuck from there on.

    > In those early years, you didn't get an OS with the computer, you had
    > to pruchase and install it from the diskette on your own. The
    > installation process consisted of a handful of comand lines printed in
    > the manual.


    The PC/XT's my company bought were pre-installed on the hard disk, but that may
    well have been done by the place they bought them from rather than by IBM. My
    first PCs I built myself, so had to install. By the time I bought an assembled
    system, it came pre-installed with MS-DOS and Windows 3.0. And the first thing
    you, as the customer, were expected to do was buy a box of floppies and create
    the distribution floppies from the HD.

    - Bill



  9. Re: Newbie Question

    "Barry Watzman" wrote in message
    news:4495E583.4070601@neo.rr.com...
    > DRI had nothing to do with it.
    >
    > IBM wanted to offer MS-DOS only, but DR threatened to sue if CP/M-86
    > was not offered, so it was offered at a very high price. DR was not happy,
    > and ultimately, DR came out with their own retail-boxed CP/M-86 for the
    > IBM-PC for $40. But the damage was done, and CP/M-86 on the PC was
    > essentially dead. I still have a couple of the DR $40 retail boxes,
    > new, still shrink-wrapped.


    This is the story I recall being touted at the time (1981-83 or so) about the
    huge price difference.

    - Bill



  10. Re: Newbie Question

    Bob McConnell wrote:

    (snip)

    > My understanding was that DRI never expected to sell more than a few
    > hundred systems, and didn't want to undercut their CP/M-80 sales, so
    > they kept the price high enough to cover their development costs. But
    > Bill, not having a competing product in the market, priced his
    > software much lower, fully expecting to sell thousands of copies. He
    > got lucky, which some people have since decided makes him a genius.


    If I remember it right from Pippin, "It is smarter to be lucky, than
    lucky to be smart."

    -- glen


  11. Re: Newbie Question

    *Bob McConnell* wrote on Mon, 06-06-19 00:51:
    >My understanding was that DRI never expected to sell more than a few
    >hundred systems, and didn't want to undercut their CP/M-80 sales, so
    >they kept the price high enough to cover their development costs. But
    >Bill, not having a competing product in the market, priced his software
    >much lower, fully expecting to sell thousands of copies. He got lucky,
    >which some people have since decided makes him a genius.


    As far as I heard it, that is totally wrong. First off Gates did not
    sell the PC-DOS. He had sold it to IBM wholesale and they sold off the
    individual packages in their own right. The clever bit (he came from a
    family of lawyers) was to retain the right to sell his own MS-DOS too.
    CP/M was not offered by IBM at first. That was part of the result of a
    law suit proving that what Gates had sold as his own was a stolen copy
    of CP/M in the first place. Unfortunately the agreement forced IBM to
    offer CP/M but forgot stipulating a price. Seems that once they had
    decided on their bedfellow they stuck him.

    --
    Tschö wa
    Axel


  12. Re: Newbie Question

    In article <200606191720.a34264@b.maus.de>,
    Axel_Berger@b.maus.de (Axel Berger) wrote:

    > *Bob McConnell* wrote on Mon, 06-06-19 00:51:
    > >My understanding was that DRI never expected to sell more than a few
    > >hundred systems, and didn't want to undercut their CP/M-80 sales, so
    > >they kept the price high enough to cover their development costs. But
    > >Bill, not having a competing product in the market, priced his software
    > >much lower, fully expecting to sell thousands of copies. He got lucky,
    > >which some people have since decided makes him a genius.

    >
    > As far as I heard it, that is totally wrong. First off Gates did not
    > sell the PC-DOS. He had sold it to IBM wholesale and they sold off the
    > individual packages in their own right. The clever bit (he came from a
    > family of lawyers) was to retain the right to sell his own MS-DOS too.
    > CP/M was not offered by IBM at first. That was part of the result of a
    > law suit proving that what Gates had sold as his own was a stolen copy
    > of CP/M in the first place. Unfortunately the agreement forced IBM to
    > offer CP/M but forgot stipulating a price. Seems that once they had
    > decided on their bedfellow they stuck him.


    Yes, that is the same sort of story that i heard.

    Though i had not heard of the law suit that prompted the sale of CP/M. I
    always thought it was there from the beginning, just at an intentional
    disadvantage due to the cost. ( regardless of it being better, it was
    priced high enough to discourage people from buying it )

  13. Re: Newbie Question

    There is a story that's been making the rounds for many years, about Kildall
    in a courtroom, loading DOS on a PC, and pulling-up a DRI copyright
    notice...

    --T

    Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! --Timothy Leary



  14. Re: Newbie Question

    Terry Yager wrote:
    > There is a story that's been making the rounds for many years, about Kildall
    > in a courtroom, loading DOS on a PC, and pulling-up a DRI copyright
    > notice...


    I've heard a similar story except it was for some other product and
    didn't involve Kildall.


    --
    David Griffith
    dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u'

  15. Re: Newbie Question

    Yeah, it's probably UL, but I think everyone has heard it...

    --T

    Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! --Timothy Leary
    "Dave Griffith" wrote in message
    news:vadxg.72103$fb2.28108@newssvr27.news.prodigy. net...
    > Terry Yager wrote:
    > > There is a story that's been making the rounds for many years, about

    Kildall
    > > in a courtroom, loading DOS on a PC, and pulling-up a DRI copyright
    > > notice...

    >
    > I've heard a similar story except it was for some other product and
    > didn't involve Kildall.
    >
    >
    > --
    > David Griffith
    > dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u'




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