[OT] Looking for some Zenith Z100 software - CP/M

This is a discussion on [OT] Looking for some Zenith Z100 software - CP/M ; >> In addition, I thought that Lee Hart knows a lot about >> the Z100 and software. I also think he regulary reads this group... Andrea wrote: > Yes in fact about 2 months ago he offered to help me ...

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Thread: [OT] Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

  1. Re: [OT] Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    >> In addition, I thought that Lee Hart knows a lot about
    >> the Z100 and software. I also think he regulary reads this group...


    Andrea wrote:
    > Yes in fact about 2 months ago he offered to help me by sending me
    > some disks. I disturbed him a couple of times but since I am not
    > willing to bug anyone I didn't write him anymore, I suppose he's now
    > too busy/has better things to do/is not so interested in helping me.


    Not your problem, Andrea; it's mine! I *have* been busy lately. This is
    the first time I've been here for about a month. I teach, and it's the
    last few weeks of school have been very hectic. That plus various spring
    projects has not left much time.

    Anyway, I can send you ~10 Z-100 disks with copies of the various
    operating systems. It's just taking me a while to get around to it!
    --
    Ring the bells that still can ring
    Forget the perfect offering
    There is a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    --
    Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

  2. Re: [OT] Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Lee Hart wrote:

    > Not your problem, Andrea; it's mine! I *have* been busy lately. This is
    > the first time I've been here for about a month. I teach, and it's the
    > last few weeks of school have been very hectic. That plus various spring
    > projects has not left much time.
    >
    > Anyway, I can send you ~10 Z-100 disks with copies of the various
    > operating systems. It's just taking me a while to get around to it!


    Hi Lee, wellcome back
    Someone else had already written that probably your many activities were
    the reason for the delay...so he was right.
    Thanks again for your good offer, I appreciate it. I have a problem now,
    I am going to leave home next monday since a few days ago I found a job
    in the far island of Sicily for this summer. I probably will be back
    home in 3 or 4 months. So at the moment I have to change my priority
    list and the Z-100 software affair has become low priority, at least
    untill I will settle down with the new job and feel comfortable in my
    new location. So if you agree I'd like to contact you privately later
    for this matter, when I will have more time.
    Thanks again, regards

    Andrea

  3. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    >> > Just a quick follow-up on the issue of "free" versus "paid".
    >Unless you have a website upon whose entry is listed "What I Will and
    >Will Not Do", people with questions are naturally going to gravitate
    >towards those that have knowledge or materials.


    Much good advice snipped for brevity...

    Perhaps you mistook my previous post for a complaint, which it was not.
    I was simply trying to point out a good reason that someone might charge
    a small fee which has nothing to do with the money. I have seen several
    references in this thread which suggest that because someone asks a
    small fee, they must be more interested in money than the material - I
    don't believe for a minute that this is the case.

    Back to my own case in point - I do in fact help most of the people
    who contact me, although some I politely advise that there may be
    better places to see the information they desire.

    The problem I was trying to emphasize however is that even sending
    a polite "sorry, no" becomes a problem when the number of requests
    begins to reach dozens a day - With the site reaching about a million
    hits a year (I wish my commercial site was so popular :-), the email
    load is gowing - Just reading and a cut/paste response to them takes
    significant time, not to mention the time spent actually helping some
    of them - As noted above, I am not complaining, just trying to give a
    picture of what it is like.

    I am very happy to help the people who really need it. I like to share
    my knowlege and experience. What is becoming a problem is that
    a significant number of the requests that I get are what I would describe
    as people looking for easy answers - "I'm don't know how (or am too
    lazy) to google, so I'll ask you instead". Helping someone bring up an
    S-100 box or an early all-in-one machine is right up my ally, however
    I really do not wish to spend significant time getting windows to run on
    old PC laptops, nor do I wish to spend significant time telling people
    that I don't want to support windows on old PC laptops.

    I don't believe that publishing guidelines about "this is what you are
    allowed to ask" would help. The subject field is too varied, and it
    presents a "closed" attitude which I'd rather not project. It is also
    quite likely many of the people who you would like it to filter would
    not read it ...

    Past experience has shown that a small fee does wonders to weed
    out the people who really don't need you. Seems lots of people are
    happy to take your time for free, but show no interest in you if you
    charge a small fee (IIRC this thread began due to a statement of
    pretty much exactly that).

    I also believe that most of the people who really do need your help
    will not balk at a reasonable fee - clearly there are some, however
    this is a choice that they are free to make, and it leads one to wonder
    how much they "really" needed the service in the first place.

    Currently I do not charge any fees for email consultation regarding
    old computers, however if the volume of email continues to grow,
    this is one measure that I would consider to keep it to a manageable
    level.

    In Herbs case, he not only answers correspondance, he also physically
    copies documents and disks, packages them and ships them. I think
    that if he did this "for free", he would be very busy and tired man - the
    small fee seems entirely reasonable to me, and I am sure it keeps the
    amount of work involved to a much more reasonable level (From my own
    experience: It also helps to bring in anough spare change to take the
    wife out to dinner from time to time - goes a long way toward her tolerance
    to all the time you spend on that "old junk").



    > It takes an extraordinary person to have the patience for
    >newcomers. The experts among us... Herb and Dave by example...
    >almost by default of who they are and their public Internet presence
    >bring it upon themselves to have some sort of newcomer handling
    >procedure.. that is consistent with their greater vision for their
    >hobby or profession. While the experts cannot and should not be
    >expected to fully train a newcomer, they can at least recommend the
    >first book, or first webpage, or other resource to get started. A
    >newcomer doesn't know what to do with a website that is enormously
    >complicated and packed with thousands of bits of highly technical
    >information... they need an easier start... such as being recommended
    >Ciarcia's "Build Your Own Z80 Computer" or "The Microcomputer Builder's
    >Bible" by Chris Johnston, or "The CP/M Programmers Handbook" by Andy
    >Johnson-Laird.


    > I encourage the experts to have a simple newcomer page, perhaps
    >entitled something like "So you want to have a running S-100
    >machine?"... that recommends a list of books to read in a suggested,
    >structured order. If the expert cannot deal with newcomers, then
    >they should not expose themselves publically.. but only to other
    >experts.... in essence, being the chess grand master, playing with
    >other masters... who in turn teach others, and so on down the
    >hierarchy.


    Although I understand the sentiment, I disagree with this ... The net is a
    vast and varied place - you simply cannot expect every site to cater to
    every possible level of user. A similar argument could be made that
    all sites should carry detailed technical content - otherwise they would
    not be suitable for advanced users ...

    These sites are not commercial ventures - Even if someone charges
    a small fee, trust me - he is not retireing on the income. The site represents
    the material that the owner of the site feels is important and interesting to
    him. It is unreasonable to expect him to put up material which does not
    meet his own interests and requirements.

    There are 100's of sites about old computers, ranging from "look at the
    pretty old computer" to "here's the low-down on the technical details of
    the xyz interface and how to make it work in this environment". It is up to
    you (the person looking for information) to learn how to research the
    material, use search engines and learn from the various resources that
    are available. In reality, the control is yours If you don't understand (or
    like) what you find on one site, move on the the next.

    In Herbs case - he posts TONS of useful information publically on his site.
    Much of it is useful to a newbie, and some of it is more technical. This
    happens to be the material he considers important. My own site is more
    of a museum - I post lots of photos, original documents, and simulators
    (including several that I created) so that you can have a much or as little
    of the experience of actually using these machines as you wish. And
    yes, it is also a resource. I post technical documents, disk images, imaging
    tools, communications utilities and other material which would be more
    useful to people already "into it". All of this is our contribution to the
    preservation and recognition of some pieces of our digital history -
    nothing more, nothing less.

    I should also point out that there are also mailing lists and newsgroups
    which may be a more suitable venue for newbie questions - these will
    reach a wider audience of knowlegable people, each of whom may or
    may not wish to respond to your particular question. This both increases
    the chances that you will get an answer (or several), and does not burden
    any one individual with responding to you (and a dozen other people)
    that he is not qualified for for some other reason does not want to answer
    your question.

    Again, don't get me wrong - I am not complaining, just trying to let you see
    the "other side" ... Your comments are appreciated, and I will keep them
    in mind as the site evolves.

    Regards,
    Dave

    --
    Dunfield Development Services http://www.dunfield.com
    Low cost software development tools for embedded systems
    Software/firmware development services Fax:613-256-5821


  4. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Andrea wrote:
    >> I was and I am ready to pay for shipping charges/disks and a
    >> symbolic fee for the job in the order of 10$ but nothing more,
    >> I am looking for someone who wants to help me, not someone
    >> who wants to help me and get money for that.


    Herb Johnson wrote:
    > I spent a couple of hours today, trying to come up with a
    > straightforward response to this attitude. Any response I come up
    > with becomes an explanation of economics, or an explanation of what
    > it takes to provide 20 or 30-year-old software (and manuals for
    > that matter). And then I have to come up with some argument about
    > how free is bad, and paying for something is good -- which is about
    > as easy as arguing against candy with a kid... I give up.


    Andrea, here's the simple explanation:

    You get what you pay for.

    If you had ordered the disks for your Z-100 from Herb or someone who
    charges for the service, you would have *gotten* that service. You'd pay
    more, but would have the disks now.

    If you ask me or someone to send them to you for free, you have to
    expect that it will take longer and the service will be poorer. Since it
    is free work for a stranger, it gets a very low priority. I'll do it,
    not so much for you, but because someone else did *me* a favor at some
    point -- its a way I can pay back the "community".

    Also recognize that you are asking a stranger to WORK for you. These
    files are not online; I can't just click the mouse and send them to you
    in a few minutes. It will take me an hour or so to get the disks, fire
    up my Z-100, copy them, find a box, package them, and drive them to the
    post office to be sent.
    --
    Ring the bells that still can ring
    Forget the perfect offering
    There is a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    --
    Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

  5. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Dave Dunfield wrote:
    > Just a quick follow-up on the issue of "free" versus "paid".
    > And by controlling the price, you can control the amount of work
    > you are being asked to perform.


    Agreed. Price establishes a priority.

    Here's a related reason: Price establishes seriousness.

    If I give something away, I usually find that the recipient places ZERO
    value on it. He will abuse it, destroy it, bury it in the closet, or
    discard it without a care. I've given away or loaned out carefully
    preserved manuals, tools, parts, and even complete working computers
    only to find that the recipient did not appreciate them. He simply
    wrecked it or threw it away.

    So, I'll generally charge something; even if it's a token fee, or work
    in kind, or a donation to someone else. It establishes that the person
    is serious, and not just seeking "free stuff" on a whim.
    --
    Ring the bells that still can ring
    Forget the perfect offering
    There is a crack in everything
    That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    --
    Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

  6. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Lee Hart wrote:

    > Andrea, here's the simple explanation:
    >
    > You get what you pay for.


    That's always true, when you go into a shop. When it comes to old
    computers enthusiasts that don't run a shop it's not always true.

    I don't know if people who offer stuff online with a professional
    service charging money for that service also pay taxes on those money.
    Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
    In Italy professional people pay taxes on their incomes. If you are a
    private person you can sell your items and ask for some money for your
    service. If you go on selling stuff you keep buying at a lower price or
    you keep offering services in exchange of money you have to switch to a
    professional level, you can't do this for a long time or on a regular
    basis as an hobbist.

    > If you had ordered the disks for your Z-100 from Herb or someone who
    > charges for the service, you would have *gotten* that service. You'd pay
    > more, but would have the disks now.


    I know, that's fine.

    > If you ask me or someone to send them to you for free, you have to
    > expect that it will take longer and the service will be poorer. Since it
    > is free work for a stranger, it gets a very low priority. I'll do it,
    > not so much for you, but because someone else did *me* a favor at some
    > point -- its a way I can pay back the "community".


    And that's what makes the community larger and better. I don't expect
    anyone to make anything for me because it's me or what, of course to you
    or to other people that are reading this message I am just a stranger
    and I don't expect to mean anything particular to you.
    If anyone wanted to help me or fill this lack of Z100 software available
    online making disk images and he liked the idea of doing it for free he
    had the chance to do it. I was there to remember it to everyone. That's
    all.
    In this group I also met some people who asked money to me for their
    cooperation (that's what I like to call it, not work: work is something
    different IMHO) and for their time, there is nothing strange in that. I
    CAN understand it. But please try to understand that there is also
    people who is not ready to pay much money for that, I think it's not a
    crime or a shame.
    Someone who's probably reading charged to another person something in
    the range of 50$ for a few 5,25" disks and a CD, as far as I know, but I
    may be wrong. Plus shipping. Is it a small fee? Maybe in the US, but
    that's a medium payday for a worker here.

    Anyway nobody is obliged to do anything, I am not obliged to buy, people
    is not obliged to ask for money. I'm just wondering why is it so
    difficult for people to think about this without putting money into it.
    Maybe that's because people are ready to pay for almost anything
    nowadays.

    But I'd like to remember that some people offered their help free of
    charge, among them also you. I'd like to thank once more those persons.

    > Also recognize that you are asking a stranger to WORK for you.


    IMHO work is something else than copying old no-more-commercial disks to
    an old computer enthusiast. I'd rather call it "make a favor". Sometimes
    people make favors for free, sometimes people ask for something in
    exchange. Different people act differently cause they're moved by
    different reasons and live situations in different way.

    I like to believe in a cooperating community. I found many cooperative
    people that didn't charge me for their time, I did the same when I had
    to send some disks, it just happened a couple of times, I don't send
    disks around the world weekly. That's the way I like to interact with
    the community. I also made some disks images when I felt there was the
    need for the community.
    Other people decided to serve the community in another way and have a
    long tradition in that, that's great too.

    > These
    > files are not online; I can't just click the mouse and send them to you
    > in a few minutes. It will take me an hour or so to get the disks, fire
    > up my Z-100, copy them, find a box, package them, and drive them to the
    > post office to be sent.


    Yes the problem is those files are not online. A couple of days ago I
    received a zipped directory with few disks images of the Zenith CPM boot
    disks, today I had some time to make disks from them and they worked. It
    seems that those images were made in 1999 but they're not available
    online as far as I know. Now I'd like to put them online, I have asked
    for the authorization, if one day those disk images will be
    available online some people (at least those with the right hardware
    setup) won't have to sendmoney/have real disks copied/wait for mail/and
    so on to make their system boot, it will be definitely easier for them,
    and the other people won't have to make (free or paid) disk copies of
    Zenith Z100 boot disks for everybody needing them.
    There will be a service for everyone, for the people willing to pay and
    for the people ready to make disks by themselves.

    Lee, at this point I think there is no need for you to spend your time
    and resources to make *me* copies of the disks, I already have made some
    of them from the disk images, I just wanted to play a little with my
    system and I could do it now if I had time, but I am leaving soon so I
    will do it in the future.
    Even if I get the authorization probably won't have time to put the
    images I received online in a short time so, if you really feel in debt
    with the community don't send me the disks, I'd suggest you to make some
    disks images with diskImage of copyQM (they both work fine) and make
    them available for the rest of the world online.

    Regards
    Andrea



    --
    ceci n'est pas une signature

  7. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    As I posted: "Simply put, some people who ask for "help" are,
    in my experience, really asking for a conversation or a collaberation,
    or have other social motives. My primary goals are to help others HELP
    THEMSELVES TO USE this old technology, in a reasonably efficient
    manner. I try to be straightforward about this, to avoid confusing and
    even angry exchanges with those who have trouble with these issues."

    This is not a discussion thread about someone's personal issues. It's
    on larger issues about "free" versus "paid" services. And yet I knew
    that such a discussion would bring out those who have some issues as I
    suggested. In part that's because some have expectations about what
    services you can get, whether for "free" or for payment. Case in point:

    js@cimmeri.com wrote:

    > Unless you have a website upon whose entry is listed "What I Will and
    > Will Not Do", people with questions are naturally going to gravitate
    > towards those that have knowledge or materials......
    > Every request can be considered handled individually. But as a
    > responder, you have to be honest from the start. You consider an
    > incoming request, compare it against your internal list of "things I
    > wish to provide to others", and reply accordingly. Replies need not
    > be harsh, and the answers can widely vary. It is ESSENTIAL that you
    > have your own purpose and services well-defined... because it is
    > against these goals and definitions that you compare every incoming
    > request.


    This person goes on to say that the "experts" are obliged to provide
    newcomers with their own "how to" page, with questions answered, books
    for them to read (in order), and so forth. They suggest the "newbie"
    (citing him or herself as an example) needs such guidance from the
    "expert" or "master", and claims

    > If the expert cannot deal with newcomers, then
    > they should not expose themselves publically.. but only to other
    > experts....


    Here's part of my response to this person's claims that I don't offer
    some direction or answered questions to "nubies":

    http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stu...0faq.htm#first

    My S-100 FAQ is by definition a list of frequent questions with
    answers. The one linked to above is a kind of "how do I start?".

    http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s_point.html

    My list of Web pointers are links to dozens of sites which have more
    information. Some of them are discussion groups or have discussion
    groups. It's reasonably current.

    Otherwise, most anyone who contacts me quickly finds me saying "WHAT
    YOU WANT IS UP TO YOU". I don't even offer advice for PAY, and darn few
    people make that offer. I have no desire to be paid to "mentor", for
    among other reasons to avoid the inevitable consequence when the
    "student" decides the mentor is a fool or, in this case, "not honest".

    I believe most reasonable people who read this person's claims will see
    that they simply wanted a lot of personal support and interaction and
    direction, which I was not able to provide, or simply chose not to
    provide. The particular details of that are frankly nobody's business,
    much less something I'd post forever in a Usenet newsgroup. Need I
    explain THAT? I reject their notions about "nubies" and "experts", but
    I won't be drawn into a discussion of something that is mostly a matter
    of opinion; and far removed from the CP/M operating system or anything
    which runs it.

    But let's bring this back to "free" and "paid" in the S-100 world.

    At no explicit charge to this person, they found my Web site of S-100
    stuff. They saw I was an "expert" - look at all the S-100 stuff I have!
    - which offered stuff to anyone. They made, by their own admission,
    requests to me beyond manuals and hardware, and did not get the
    guidance or support they wanted. Consequently they were disappointed.

    I claim my S-100 site is supported by the people who pay for stuff, or
    who offer me stuff; plus such interests as are mine in what I think is
    interesting; plus stuff that I post to save time in repeating it over
    and over again.

    But he or she also posts that as a "nubie" they REQUIRE guidance,
    directions, how-to's and so forth. They say that since I'm an "expert"
    who, by the existance of my Web site, is out to pass along knowledge
    and information, I'm OBLIGED to provide "here is what the nubie should
    do", or I "should" only talk to other "experts".

    Let's look at that claim.

    If you look at some other Web sites, they have such information. I just
    looked at a Web site for old mechanical phonographs. There was a list
    of books for repair, or for valueation, or for history of specific
    machines. This site had a list of parts for sale, used or refurbished
    or new; a price list for services offered. They had phonographs for
    sale.
    Did they have "here is how to restore your phonograph"? No, but for $30
    you can buy a book to do so. Did they have a discussion group maillist?
    I don't think so, but they are part of a Web ring of other sites, some
    of which no doubt have such a list. And they link to sites which are
    "club" sites for old phonographs.

    How is it that THEY offer support which I do not? 1) There are only a
    few dozen mechanical phonographs - there were over 100 S-100 companies.
    2) You can't mix and match phonographs - you CAN put several brands of
    boards in an S-100 box. You can also change how the S-100 box works
    with different software. 3) You don't need to know physics or acoustics
    to play a phonograph or to restore it. You DO need some clues about
    hardware and software to run, much less maintain, a S-100 system.

    4) Even a worn, dirty mechanical phonograph sells for a few hundred
    dollars, maybe more. A restored one is twice that to a few thoudand.
    Now, how many S-100 computers are worth more than $100? more than zero?
    5) There are phonograph clubs - there are no S-100 clubs, and very few
    old computer clubs (but this is arguable). 6) Most anyone can look at
    an old phonograph and see it is or was a pretty piece of furniture, and
    sort out more or less how it works. Try THAT with an S-100 system. 7)
    an antiques dealer will gladly pick up, and sell, an old phonograph.
    Whereas, they will LAUGH if you tell them a 30-year old computer is "an
    antique". They will laugh harder if you show them one. Their customers
    are much the same.

    So what's my point? Look at the general level of interest in old
    phonographs - antique stores, furniture collectors, old music
    interests, and a few technologists. Look at how RELATIVELY easy it is
    to fix and restore them - mechanical knowledge or a few hundred dollars
    will get it done. And there is no shortage of software, no training for
    use. Even the economic value of them is beyond dispute - no quote marks
    needed here, an antique dealer or Web auction site or commercial site
    or buyer's guide will tell you.

    Now, should I go out and establish all these things - price guides,
    how-to books, Web discussions, and personal advice from "expert" to
    "nubie"? Should I do it for free - that would be nuts! So who would pay
    for it - and how much? How about all my customers, like the customers
    do who support that phonograph Web site?

    Well, I can't expect to sell thousands of copies of "herb's S-100
    buyer's guide", can I? And will "Herb's S-100 nubie Web page" bring me
    thousands of orders..or dozens? That's not just an "economic" question
    because somebody has to pay me SOMETHING for the months of work it
    would take to make that page, write that book (if not print it) and so
    on. Or, someone else has to be paying me otherwise for my OTHER time,
    such that I can afford to "freely" give my time in this S-100 endeavor.

    And EVEN IF I DO ALL THAT, I have no doubt whatsoever that someone else
    will say "Herb's price guide is nonsense"; or "Herb's advice about
    S-100 repair is too technical". Or they will simply put their own
    guides and prices online, their own how-to's, and so forth. My book and
    Web site will be no better than someone else's. And I don't see how any
    of that will create new interests from all those "nubies" who
    heretofore really really WANTED to build an S-100 system but could not,
    until my site encourged them.

    Whereas, after I read a few mechanical phonograph Web sites, I've
    considered keeping the phonograph I acquired and fixing it up instead
    of passing it along at cost to the buyer who wanted me to get it for
    them (details private and irrelevant). It's not hard, not expensive to
    do so; and it looks and sounds kinda nice; and most anyone would agree
    with that. And it's worth twice what I paid for it.

    That's what I work against in the old computer world. That, and the
    occasional customer who has their own issues to boot. It took me about
    three hours to write this - time lost to me on a day when I needed
    those three hours. It's easy for someone to just spit out what they
    think into a keyboard - it's hard to say WHY you think it, or what
    supports it beyond your opinion, and to do so in an orderly and edited
    way.

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    web site
    domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"

    ..


  8. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Lee Hart wrote:
    >
    > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
    >
    > If you had ordered the disks for your Z-100 from Herb or someone who
    > charges for the service, you would have *gotten* that service. You'd pay
    > more, but would have the disks now.
    >
    > If you ask me or someone to send them to you for free, you have to
    > expect that it will take longer and the service will be poorer. Since it
    > is free work for a stranger, it gets a very low priority. I'll do it,
    > not so much for you, but because someone else did *me* a favor at some
    > point -- its a way I can pay back the "community".
    >
    > Also recognize that you are asking a stranger to WORK for you. These
    > files are not online; I can't just click the mouse and send them to you
    > in a few minutes. It will take me an hour or so to get the disks, fire
    > up my Z-100, copy them, find a box, package them, and drive them to the
    > post office to be sent.
    >

    All this being said, I feel *sure* that all of us (except *maybe* Herb)
    have done favors for people we contacted online...and did those favors
    for free. I have *no* problem with people who charge for goods or services
    that they provide. I have *no* problem with people who do things for
    free. I do *not* think that one type of person should harrass the other
    for what he is doing, though. We need both kinds.


    --
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

  9. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Lee Hart wrote:
    >
    > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
    >
    > If you ask me or someone to send them to you for free, you have to
    > expect that it will take longer and the service will be poorer. Since it
    > is free work for a stranger, it gets a very low priority. I'll do it,
    > not so much for you, but because someone else did *me* a favor at some
    > point -- its a way I can pay back the "community".
    >

    This is the way I like to view the online community. You help someone
    today, and tomorrow someone else will help you with something. We all
    work together to preserve the old machines, software, and documentation.
    Sure, some folks will only take, but I believe these to be the minority.
    It all works on a "pay it forward" type of transaction.
    >
    > Also recognize that you are asking a stranger to WORK for you. These
    > files are not online; I can't just click the mouse and send them to you
    > in a few minutes. It will take me an hour or so to get the disks, fire
    > up my Z-100, copy them, find a box, package them, and drive them to the
    > post office to be sent.
    >

    And you get the satisfaction that you have helped a fellow old computer
    enthusiast (or is that a computer enthusiast who is old? ;-). In addtion
    you do *not* have to feel so beholding when someone else does something
    for you. This is a hobby for most of us, and ISTM that we have more time
    than money.

    Still I do agree that having to pay for something...does focus the attention.


    --
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
    +----------------------------------------------------------------+

  10. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Andrea wrote:

    > If anyone wanted to help me or fill this lack of Z100 software available
    > online making disk images and he liked the idea of doing it for free he
    > had the chance to do it. I was there to remember it to everyone. That's
    > all.


    Do you really think that someone in the world does not know that without
    your help?

    --
    Salu2

    Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

  11. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    >Even if I get the authorization probably won't have time to put the
    >images I received online in a short time so, if you really feel in debt
    >with the community don't send me the disks, I'd suggest you to make some
    >disks images with diskImage of copyQM (they both work fine) and make
    >them available for the rest of the world online.


    If either of you makes images of the Z100 disks, I would be happy to host
    them on the images section of my site.

    I would also strongly urge you to make the disk images in ImageDisk
    format. CopyQM, Teledisk etc. all work well, however they use proprietary
    undocumented image file formats - if the original program does not work
    to recreate the disk, your are left with no other options.

    One of the main reasons I created ImageDisk is that I could (and did)
    openly document the image file format - this means that if at some time
    in the future you are unable to find a setup capable of making the
    disks with my software, you still have the information you need to extract
    the sector data from the image and explore other means of creating a disk
    (I provide some utilities which may be useful in doing this as well).

    Regards,
    Dave

    --
    dave06a@ Collector of classic pre-PC computer systems.
    dunfield. If you have an old 8/16 bit non-PC system in need of a good
    com home, please contact me at email address on the left, or
    via contact link of this web site:
    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html


  12. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    An error in posted Web links:
    >
    > Here's part of my response to this person's claims that I don't offer
    > some direction or answered questions to "nubies":
    >
    > http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stu...0faq.htm#first


    The correct link is:

    http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stu...faq.html#first

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    web site
    domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  13. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    I have some responses to recent comments about my post. Then I make my
    promised economic case about the value of "pay" and the disadvantage of
    "free".

    But first, this is not about Herb Johnson, what I do or do not do in
    particular. This is about the issues of providing items and services
    for "free", versus providing items or services for some kind of
    payment. It's about, in my opinion, the value of having some people who
    REGULARLY provide items and services at some cost above out of pocket
    costs such as mailing and media. But I can only speak about what I do.
    I am not responsible for, nor do I report upon, what OTHER people do.
    I'm responsible for my actions, not someone else's. But my thoughts
    about this are far from original, so I hope they are worth posting and
    reading.

    What is a business? Is business bad or good?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    In order for me, Herb Johnson, to sustain a SERVICE over years of time;
    I must charge some amounts for the accumlated costs that I have for
    storage; for acquisition; for a Web page. I must take time to look for
    items that I offer for later sale. I must STORE those. When customers
    ask me for something on my Web site, I have to verify it. When they
    order, I have to pack and ship it. All of these cost me time and money.


    Why do I call these people "customers"? Why do I call this a
    "business"? And what I do as "services"? The service part is easy - I'm
    available all the time to do what I do - a hobbyist is not. I've
    described that I look ahead - a hobbyist just offers whatever they
    have, and when it's gone they are done. Some posts make distinctions
    between "hobby" activity, that it's what you do when you have time -
    that is, "free" time - and by implication you have the items of
    interest in hand. I hope I've made a distinction about
    the value of someone who does this DELIBERATELY AND OFTEN, versus
    someone who happens to be able to do it occasionally "as a hobby".

    As for "business" and "customers", I use those words without shame,
    because I'm over 50 years old. In my time, individuals would start
    small businesses and provide people with products and services. They
    took PRIDE in providing GOOD services, in being polite, in keeping
    their WORD about what they say they would do. In my day, business was
    GOOD. Providing good services was GOOD. Even today in fact, almost all
    the people who deal with me as customers, are pleased and get what they
    paid for. They have few complaints, and those get resolved.

    Some of the replies to my posts deny some or all of the above. Some
    persons who post suggest I'm not really running a business, so I don't
    deserve extra payments, or that I don't really work or have expenses
    the way a "real" business would. Or even if I am and do, some suggest
    I'm not part of "the community" because as they know, the "community"
    gives FREELY, with no thought of gain or benefit other than someday you
    will do the same for me or someone else. Work of that sort is done with
    one's "free" time anyway, they say. Some question my motives, merely
    because I charge something, or maybe becuase I use these words like
    "customers" and "business" and so forth.

    My motives beyond the economic are not for public debate. This is not
    the place for me to talk about my heart, my motivations, and so forth.
    That is private, and personal. This is not a blog, and certainly not MY
    blog.

    As for the economic: What is apparently lost on those who value free
    but occasional efforts over regular but paid-for efforts is this.
    People like myself who choose to put REGULAR time and effort and
    resources into supporting a community must find some economic
    justification to maintain that effort. Time becomes part of those
    economics as well, because most of us must trade our time for salaries
    or commissions or other sorts of income. So a "business", as I've
    described it, is simply a methodical way to sustain an activity in the
    manner I've described.

    Others have posted that they, too, have costs of time and resources,
    and that those who think otherwise have underestimated these costs.
    Thank you, I hope my remarks are also useful and affirming to you.

    That ends my explainations of "business" versus "hobby". If I write
    further about it it will be on my Web site. It's only relevant in this
    newsgroup, because it has a long term impact on the "hobby", as I
    describe below.

    "free" vs "paid" and consequences
    ----------------------------------------------------

    There is a problem in doing the business I describe in this "hobby".

    It is a consequence of "free", That is, free downloads, free scanning,
    free Web storage, free Internet access. Also "free" in the ease by
    which physical objects are converted into these virtual copies and
    converted back again. That consequence is that the ECONOMIC value of
    the resulting items is near zero. And, when copies are cheap, the
    ORIGINALS become cheap - ask any antiques dealer, anyone who sells
    clothing, etc.. And so, when copies and originals are cheap to zero,
    there is no ECONOMIC way to do very much business. And remember how I
    define business, as the SUSTAINED effort to provide these items and
    services over a LONG period, upon request - but for a fee.

    If there is no sustained effort, and the economic value of these items
    are low to zero, then in the long term, these items - originals,
    copies, whatever - will be DISCARDED. They will not be bought and made
    available. Do I have to explain that in great detail?

    Joe or Jane Hobbyist sees an old S-100 system on the curb. Should they
    pick it up, take it home, try to offer it to someone? No. 1) it's
    trash, I don't mess with trash. 2) It's not worth my time, I'm busy 3)
    I don't know what it is 4) I checked eBay, it only sells for $50, my
    time is not worth the packing of it. 5) I don't like to sell stuff
    anyway, money is evil, etc.

    The same applies to a manual. Should Joe or Jane scan it, or bother to
    mail to somebody who will scan it? Why even collect ORIGINAL manuals,
    when the copies are free? Indeed, online Web auction sales of original
    manuals shows they often don't sell, or sell for dollars (reproduction
    costs). Here's another fact: I, Herb Johnson, have no incentive today
    to buy manuals because I can't be assured I can cover my purchase costs
    by reselling good copies. That manual, if no one else offers it, will
    become lost - either it will be discarded or it will be buried in
    someone's collection and inaccessable.

    As time goes on, the problems of acquisition only get worse. Joe or
    Jane Hobbyist sees a pile of 5.25-inch diskettes in the basement. They
    get discarded - why? 1) My new computer can't read 5.25 inch disks. 2)
    Disk images are already on the Web for free, these probably are also.
    3) I don't have time. 4) I checked eBay, a stack of disks went for $10,
    it's not worth my time. This is not Herb's fantasy, remember this
    thread started because Andrea could not find free online Z-100 boot
    disks, or someone to send a set for a token cost, until he asked
    repeatedly. Soneone else posted "I have the disk images, but no floppy
    drive to write them to". Reread the thread if you need to!

    Andrea in particular said his computer only cost 30 euros (something
    like that) and he could not afford more, or at least see that paying
    more was reasonable (Read his posts for specifics.) Again, low value
    equals low incentive.

    Keep in mind, stuff that stays in someone's basement does not help "the
    community", it's got to get around one way or another, or it gets
    discarded. So who picks up this stuff? who can even DO anything with
    it? Either a dedicated hobbyist, or a person who does this as a
    business. Uh, what's the difference between the two? I'm not
    sure...hobbyists don't ask for money? OK, so how long can Dan the
    Dedicated Hobbyist pick up stuff and sell it or even GIVE it away,
    before they run out of a) time b) money c) space or d) interest? See
    where that goes?

    Economics provides the incentives and pays for the above resources, in
    the manner I've stated - more or less, and not much payment at that,
    and less so over time.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's far more posting about economics than I ever intended to post. I
    have many things to do, I have some kind of life, plus this thing that
    I call a "business" that some think so little of, or think nothing of.
    It astounds me that I have to apologize for thinking about money, the
    value of stuff, to explain what I do is more than click a mouse or
    insert a floppy disk.

    So I'm thankful for my customers who appreciate the value of the
    services I provide. When my customer base becomes too small, and their
    appreciation too little; or when my age plus inflation plus other costs
    make what I do UNeconomical and difficult; I will do what others have
    done, and stop this and do something else.

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    web site
    domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  14. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

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    On 2006-05-11 Dave Dunfield said:

    > I would also strongly urge you to make the disk images in ImageDisk
    > format. CopyQM, Teledisk etc. all work well, however they use
    > proprietary undocumented image file formats - if the original
    > program does not work to recreate the disk, you are left with no
    > other options.
    > ...
    > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/


    Nice program, Dave! ImageDisk works perfectly under DR-DOS
    on my Pentium II/300 with a 5.25-inch DS/DD drive installed.

    I'm considering converting all my disk images to .IMD format.


    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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  15. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    Dave Dunfield wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > One of the main reasons I created ImageDisk is that I could (and did)
    > openly document the image file format - this means that if at some time
    > in the future you are unable to find a setup capable of making the
    > disks with my software, you still have the information you need to extract
    > the sector data from the image and explore other means of creating a disk
    > (I provide some utilities which may be useful in doing this as well).


    I downloaded that and took a quick look, but have had no reason to
    run anything. However I also downloaded your source package, which
    seems to contain no source.

    --
    "If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
    the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
    "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
    "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
    More details at:
    Also see



  16. Re: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software


    >I downloaded that and took a quick look, but have had no reason to
    >run anything. However I also downloaded your source package, which
    >seems to contain no source.


    I have not released a source package.

    Due to pressure in the classic computer collectors mailing list
    regarding the source, and claims that the program was unusable
    to certain individuals if they could not examine the source, I
    created the package which lets you "take a peek at the source".
    The enclosed executable lets you view the various source files
    with modest efforts to keep them from being easily extracted (I
    am sure there are plenty of people here and in the list that could
    figure out how to do so, but I ask that you please do not) - at
    some point I may release the source code, however I am not
    finished with my work on it yet, and for various reasons have not
    made the source openly available - I have issued a standing offer
    to share it with anyone who asks and agrees to keep it confidential
    until I formerly release it - but I don't want to go into all that again,
    you can read the classiccmp archives if you want more details.

    Dave

    --
    Dunfield Development Services http://www.dunfield.com
    Low cost software development tools for embedded systems
    Software/firmware development services Fax:613-256-5821


  17. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software



    To clarify, I am making the case that if you are an expert in an area,
    and publically advertise yourself, then you do have obligations to
    represent your community in the light it would prefer to be represented
    in -- whatever its standards are. Of course, you can also ignore
    those obligations...

    By merit of what you know and *appear* to have available, newcomers
    will naturally and inevitably be attracted towards you. You would be
    stupid NOT to be prepared to handle them in a graceful manner when they
    come -- IF that notion is supported by your community standards. I
    made a few suggestions as to how one COULD handle them.

    So to restate, I am making the argument that experts or highly
    knowledeables do carry a special responsibility .. that they are in a
    special position precisely because newcomers often are attracted to
    them FIRST. Seems like every time I do a google search on something
    S-100 related, Doctor Herb's name comes up FIRST. Why would the Google
    search result any differently for a newcomer? So highly visible
    experts PUT THEMSELVES there -- and they had better be ready for it!
    When the newcomer arrives at their doorstep, the highly visible person
    is in the special position of casting the hobby in a positive, or a
    negative, light!

    So let's look at a situation:
    ...

    Doctor Herb wrote: "I believe most reasonable people who read this
    person's claims will see that they simply wanted a lot of personal
    support and interaction and direction, which I was not able to provide,
    or simply chose not to provide."

    Dr. Herb is correct. As a newbie, I came to him enquiring whether I
    might hire him hourly to provide me some general guidance on getting a
    Z80 S-100 going again. I tried to find out what he would be willing to
    provide IF ANYTHING. Long (and personal) story, but we got into
    complex discussions which rapidly spiraled out of control because, I
    suspect, Dr. Herb insisted on EMAIL only (despite advertising a phone
    number at the end of every email). As anyone who uses EMAIL too much
    knows, email is not an ideal communication medium between humans
    especially once misunderstanding creeps in. Had he and I talked on
    the phone, I think it would have been clear within 10 minutes what his
    offerings were, and I certainly would not have been "disappointed" by
    any refusal -- I'm a 40 year old man, not some immature brat. It is
    interesting to see now that where I was coming from and how he
    describes experiencing it are two very different stories... which is
    both the cause and the consequence of poor communication via email.
    Enough said.

    Now, to bring this back to "free" vs. "paid" in the S-100 world...

    Some of us out here are willing to hire an expert for guidance because
    we want something badly enough. Plain and simple. People hire me all
    day long to do it for them, so it is natural that I would ask the same
    of others that I perceive as knowing more than I do in a subject. I
    don't understand Herb's comments re appearing as a fool and so on:
    normal people understand that everyone has their limits and can't offer
    everything.

    I certainly agree that those of you who are becoming questioned to the
    point where you no longer have time for it, should control the demand
    by exacting a price for it.. ASSUMING you even want to answer questions
    at all! This is simple supply and demand. And there should be no
    guilt there. But this brings me back to the very first paragraph I
    wrote on this: know what you want to provide and stick to it. If you
    are an expert who does NOT want to answer questions, then simply don't
    do it! But I think it is reasonable, if you have a website, to merely
    state your intentions, ie. "Hi... Here's my website. Sorry, I don't
    have time to answer email questions, but welcome to my website and I
    hope it helps you. If you are a newcomer, I might suggest this link
    first. Have fun!"

    Talk about simple and polite. Now you've managed the newcomer in a
    reasonably positive way.

    Now I'm fascinated by what Dave says about not even having time to keep
    up with the replies, so a website page easy to find that is his reply,
    might help him out.. or an email autoresponder.

    At some point, any hobby... can begin to bloom into a business... so
    one has to think about that as well. Do I grow into a business to meet
    this need?

    I think a new topic should be started to discuss what the CPM / S-100
    community standards really are... so that the front men can decide how
    and whether to support those standards.
    ...

    Time to write this response: 25 minutes.


  18. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    >Now I'm fascinated by what Dave says about not even having time to keep
    >up with the replies, so a website page easy to find that is his reply,
    >might help him out.. or an email autoresponder.


    >Time to write this response: 25 minutes.


    Um... I think this makes my point quite nicely...

    However, I want to emphasize that I am not yet to the point where
    the email load is a "big problem" - some days it is, but most days
    are no big deal - I have no idea how busy Herb is with his efforts,
    however you did point out that his names does come up near the
    top of many searches - the only point I was trying to make is that
    I can see and understand the use of a "service charge" as a way
    to control the load.

    Regarding "easy to find pages" ... my site is pretty easy to find,
    and it contains a lot of information. How can I put up a page to help
    the people who don't want to look through a web page, but prefer
    to email me instead - there is so much information and it is so
    varied that I cannot possibly make a "short page with all the
    answers" - not to mention that answering newbie questions is not
    my main area of intrest or focus, and I don't have the desire, time
    or incentive to spend significant time creating and maintaining such
    resources as a free service.

    What I have done is attempted to make as much of the information
    that I have at hand available to others. Most people can find what
    they need by reading original manuals. The photos help show how
    things are assembled and what they "should look like", and there
    is lots of other information there - you just have to look for it. Sure
    it's not cataloged as nicely as it could be, but it's a spare-time
    no-cost resource - you get what you pay for (in this case, I think
    more than you pay for).

    I have never had a positive experience with an auto-responder
    (on either end of the transaction). It is also a service not offered
    by my email host.

    Dave

    --
    Dunfield Development Services http://www.dunfield.com
    Low cost software development tools for embedded systems
    Software/firmware development services Fax:613-256-5821


  19. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software

    js@cimmeri.com wrote:
    > So highly visible
    > experts PUT THEMSELVES there -- and they had better be ready for it!
    > When the newcomer arrives at their doorstep, the highly visible person
    > is in the special position of casting the hobby in a positive, or a
    > negative, light!
    >
    > So let's look at a situation:
    > Doctor Herb wrote: "I believe most reasonable people who read this
    > person's claims will see that they simply wanted a lot of personal
    > support and interaction and direction, which I was not able to provide,
    > or simply chose not to provide."
    >
    > Dr. Herb is correct. As a newbie, I came to him enquiring whether I
    > might hire him hourly to provide me some general guidance on getting a
    > Z80 S-100 going again. I tried to find out what he would be willing to
    > provide IF ANYTHING. Long (and personal) story, but we got into
    > complex discussions which rapidly spiraled out of control because, I
    > suspect, Dr. Herb insisted on EMAIL only (despite advertising a phone
    > number at the end of every email). As anyone who uses EMAIL too much
    > knows, email is not an ideal communication medium between humans
    > especially once misunderstanding creeps in. Had he and I talked on
    > the phone, I think it would have been clear within 10 minutes what his
    > offerings were, and I certainly would not have been "disappointed" by
    > any refusal -- I'm a 40 year old man, not some immature brat. It is
    > interesting to see now that where I was coming from and how he
    > describes experiencing it are two very different stories... which is
    > both the cause and the consequence of poor communication via email.


    I'm sorry this guy saw fit to air his personal grievances in a public
    newsgroup, where they will persist in archives for decades and be seen
    by many people. I did not name him in any posts of mine - he has named
    me in his posts. Now I have to post something in reply - not to him but
    to those who read his post.

    AGAIN, in my opinion, his postings on this subject, and on me, are just
    another way for him to attempt to engage me, or someone, in this
    "expert/beginner" relationship that he insists upon on HIS terms.
    Arguing about a discussion is just another kind of discussion. I
    terminated any contact with him accordingly, when I saw we did not have
    productive discussions and had no "meeting of minds" about what I would
    do for him. My decision was my choice of course, which I was not
    obliged to explain past a certain point, or to convince him about. It
    was a private decision, or at least it used to be.

    Arguing with him in public is worse than arguing in private. I rejected
    one, I reject the other likewise. Most of what he has posted in this
    thread, affirms I had good reason to not become his "guide" or "mentor"
    or whatever he thinks "experts" are obliged to do for "beginners". None
    of which goes to making an S-100 system work. Was that the goal, or
    not?

    That ends any response from me to or about this person. Reasonable
    persons can draw their own conclusions, and decide where their time and
    discussion should be spent regarding this guy's issues.

    Not much about "free" vs. "paid" in this bit. It relates obliquely to
    services for "pay". No service, no pay, the end - usually. "Free" is
    the fact that one can "freely" access my site, see what I have and say.
    What they think about that, and me, is up to them. I can't please
    everyone who freely finds me; I can define relationships with those who
    contact me. Not all contacts are fruitful. Life goes on.

    Let's talk about discussion, since it came up. I am not against
    discussion. I am or try to be thoughtful about when to discuss, and
    when to stop discussion. Mark Twain once wrote: "Thunder is loud;
    thunder is good. But it's lightning that does the work." I know when to
    work, and when to discuss - I hope. I have a preference for the former,
    but that's just me, for what I'm doing now. You may disagree, I won't
    argue with you. I am not an expert about discussion.

    Here's my "work", my "expertise". My Web site is full of iS-100
    information, links to sites, documents or lists of available documents.
    I've accumulated manuals for decades. READ THE MANUALS, run the
    software, fix the hardware (or vice versa) Talk about actual successes,
    failures, and learn from each other. If these documents and technology
    are too difficult, find simpler forms of technology, learn THOSE, then
    come back. That, my friends, is my "expert" advice, and it's all most
    of us needs including the "beginners".

    I don't guarantee this is enough for everyone, nor that this fills
    everyone's needs, nor that Herb Johnson can personally intervene on
    request. Would YOU?

    Herb Johnson

    Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
    web site
    domain mirror
    my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
    if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
    "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
    S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


  20. Re: Free .vs. paid - was: Looking for some Zenith Z100 software


    Dr. Quotation is too busy trying to assassinate (however comically) my
    character to appropriately debate the general cases I'm making, it
    seems. And, I think the conversation simply too nuanced for the
    currently-plugged-in S-100 CPU card. Yet, I am delighted, for the
    single word "assassinate" describes the character shown towards me --
    twice in a row. He also cannot fathom why I would talk in public about
    his public persona (I do not know and would not comment upon his
    private one). Yes, if only we could all keep our dirty laundry
    hidden, what a better place the world we be! :-D

    But I really do wish to return to the paid vs. free topic.

    Simply put, among all the positive experiences I've had as a newcomer
    to the hobby, I had a single negative experience with an
    available-to-public resource in this free versus paid topic, even
    though I was offering to pay! And my best experiences have ironically
    been with those who have refused any payment. I am deeply grateful to
    them, with or without that refusal.

    So PAYING doesn't solve all the problems. There are also problems in
    how some available-to-public resources respond to these requests for
    help, whether payment is offered or not, wanted or not.

    Now, be clear: had this resource not been publically advertised, I
    would not be talking about it publically. Sharing my experience both
    informs the community about possible situations to avoid, and opens the
    door for positive change. My experience does NOT predict what your
    experience will necessarily be like with any resource... it only
    suggests it might be possible.

    Points made:
    - highly visible (public) experts have a special opportunity as de
    facto *frontmen* for their hobby to cast it in the light deemed
    suitable by the community surrounding that hobby. I have also made
    the provocative statement that frontmen are OBLIGATED to serve their
    community in the way it deems appropriate, or they should NOT be the
    frontmen! This point is of course open to debate.

    - simply because of their visibility, frontmen will naturally attract
    newcomers to the hobby .

    - frontmen would be smart to know how they want to handle them in
    advance, and to be prepared to do so in a smooth way in order to 1)
    protect their own time; 2) project the hobby in the appropriate light.

    - frontmen SHOULD charge for their time, as a way to manage demand.. if
    they have any desire to serve any portion of the demand.

    - if frontmen do not wish to serve some or all of the demand, they
    would be smart to post in a highly visible place a notice to such
    effect, as a way to politely turn away those doing the demanding.

    - frontmen who have demand at their doorstep might have perhaps a great
    opportunity knocking at their door.

    As a refutation to the inevitable Dr. Quotation response, as a reality
    check I've had 7 (seven) peer coworkers review these points for
    rationality. They are now "peer reviewed." These peers agree that
    the above statements are perfectly reasonable statements to make, if
    not even just plain old common-sense. I didn't invent these ideas.

    So take these ideas, or leave them. I can't force them on anyone.
    But for those of you being troubled by the load of requests... perhaps
    they can help you.


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