OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta - BSD

This is a discussion on OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta - BSD ; Josh Grosse ha scritto: >>Yes I know this, but I believe there is a philosophy under the OpenBSD >>development, so I think these desktop system go against it. >>Too fancy, too knobs... >> >> http://www.openbsd.org/papers/openco.../mgp00023.html >> >>Here said to make ...

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  1. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Josh Grosse ha scritto:

    >>Yes I know this, but I believe there is a philosophy under the OpenBSD
    >>development, so I think these desktop system go against it.
    >>Too fancy, too knobs...
    >>
    >>http://www.openbsd.org/papers/openco.../mgp00023.html
    >>
    >>Here said to make the things just work.


    > You are looking at Jonathan Gray's (jsg@) presentation specific to kernel
    > driver development. This is unrelated to ports.


    Maybe I'm wrong: I thought that the kernel driver development way of
    doing things should be the same way (of course with the obvious limits)
    of to develop ther rest of the system (ports included).

    > The goals of the Project are very clear:
    >
    > * development platform
    > * code quality
    > * security
    > * crypto
    > * standards
    > * multiplicity of architectures
    > * politics free
    > * developer oriented
    > * resolve serious problems
    > * external packages (ports) should have minimal modification, and
    > submit changes back to 3rd parties.
    > * obtain funding
    >
    > Nowhere in this list does it say "Keep stinkin' uninformed newbies away,
    > if they can't install it they shouldn't use it."


    Ah, uff, there is a lot of documentation...
    A newbies that want to learn can do it in many ways, and...
    I said KDE (etc) (in my opinion) is against my think of the OpenBSD
    development idea, I neve said "Keep stinkin' uninformed newbies away,
    if they can't install it they shouldn't use it."
    I think a newbie that want to learn can do it also without KDE & C.

    > The Project, on misc@ has publicly said to many new users, often without
    > any gentleness, "If you are unable to install, administrate, or support
    > our OS, but still wish to use it, please contract with any of the
    > commercial support organizations published on our website." Usually, the
    > way that is phrased is much less polite.


    Ok, but if an user ask: Oh, why isn't there this fancy feature in
    OpenBSD, can you insert/develop for me???
    What this mean with the "install, administrate, or support"?

    > Commercial support is still an option.
    >
    > This particular set of .iso files does not provide any non-standard
    > install tools. I happen to leave bsd.rd is in the root directory.
    > If the user discovers and boots that kernel, they have nothing
    > different than what is in cd40.iso or cdrom40.fs


    Oh, but I'm usually able to fix my system problem just with it.
    And maybe also many others guy, cause there isn't an official live cd.

    >>I don't mind which desktop other use...


    > Your first post in this thread recommended removing them from the tree.
    > You cannot have it both ways if you want to argue your point successfully
    > with me.


    I ask for this becouse, in my mind, I've thought that maybe this is the
    last chance to keep guys with strange ideas far from OpenBSD.
    NOT AL USERS! Just the guys that doesn't understand the OpenBSD
    development idea (just my idea of the development process).

    >>... but with these, there is more
    >>chances that a lot of people that doesn't understand/know this philosopy
    >>come here with some strange ideas to help the others.


    > They still have not installed the OS. They have only booted it.


    Oh... I have installed the full OS for to undestand, with the live with
    a fancy graphic, you are masking the real meaning of the OS, so they
    will not understand anymore.

    >>Someone can post on the misc with a obvios question also if he's not
    >>stupid... But if he want learn etc, ok! But then he has to understand
    >>what kind of system OpenBSD is, not ask for things that the system
    >>doesn't have... If he doesn't like, go to another OS, there are so many
    >>other OS for this...


    > As I said, I answer many newbie questions, constantly. Some are able to
    > "get it," others are not.
    >
    > But the project's goals are obviously not the same as yours.


    Maybe are your project goals that are not the same of the OpenBSD
    project, in fact in the goals there isn't "make a live cd with fancy
    graphic".

    >>Yes, but I don't berate others who use "integrated" desktop, I berate
    >>others who use the system for things that are against the purpose for
    >>which OpenBSD exist.


    > I do not understand how having a non-installable LiveCD provides for the
    > purpose of familarization, or hardware testing, provides anything which
    > violates the goals of the project.


    Not, just masking he goals.
    If you have to do with a system wich administration is by
    shell/console/command line, and the user is not able/familiar with it,
    he won't understand really what he will install, so the live cd in
    useless. He has to undestand that ALL is done in a way, so you don't hel
    p him, cause at the end it will do the thing that every administrator do
    with the shell, and so... How the live can be usefull?

    Manuel

  2. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Joachim Schipper ha scritto:
    > Manuel wrote:
    >
    >>Josh Grosse ha scritto:
    >>
    >>>>Can I ask that the KDE, Gnome, XFCE and all the other big desktop
    >>>>system/window managers are deleted from the port system????

    >
    >
    >>>>Why there are always people that want help others with these things???
    >>>>New user should not use OpenBSD if they don't undestand what they do!
    >>>>FreeBSD user should continue to use FreeBSD, not OpenBSD! I've chosen
    >>>>OpenBSD for this absence of stupid things! Why there is still people
    >>>>that doesn't understand this???

    >>
    >>>Because even if you do not want new users, you will get them. Since I
    >>>answer many newbie questions regularly, I would rather answer them from
    >>>someone who has actually used the OS for 15 or 20 minutes, or even a week,
    >>>then from someone who doesn't have a clue how to obtain a dmesg. Don't
    >>>worry, the majority of new users don't post to misc@, only the bravest or
    >>>most stupid.

    >>
    >>Someone can post on the misc with a obvios question also if he's not
    >>stupid... But if he want learn etc, ok! But then he has to understand
    >>what kind of system OpenBSD is, not ask for things that the system
    >>doesn't have... If he doesn't like, go to another OS, there are so many
    >>other OS for this...

    >
    >
    > Why? There is no technical or 'philosophical' reason not to 'allow' KDE.
    > Certainly, there are downsides to it and quite a few OpenBSD users use
    > very different window managers - I'm using ion, and the only graphical
    > app I use with any regularity is Firefox - but that's no reason to
    > disallow it.
    >
    > In short, KDE sucks, but if people want to use it and maintain it, why
    > not?


    Yes, I agree, but is for the reasons that I've alredy explain in the
    post for Josh Grosse.

    >>>>P.S.: Oh, if someone read the headers: in my notebook, as development
    >>>>platform/desktop, I use OpenBSD. Here I use windows/thunderbird, I need
    >>>>if for some trouble with my isp and the P2P.

    >>
    >>>You use Windows and you berate others who use other "integrated" desktop
    >>>environs? T-bird for newsreading?

    >>
    >>Yes, but I don't berate others who use "integrated" desktop, I berate
    >>others who use the system for things that are against the purpose for
    >>which OpenBSD exist.
    >>In fact I also use windows, as desktop system is the best, but... It
    >>exist for this... I use OpenBSD for development platform becouse...
    >>It's a system for programmers! (I've read someone tell this also)
    >>I use it also as desktop becouse... I like to do things with the
    >>console/command line, but I berate who want do things like in windows in
    >>a system as OpenBSD, and your live cd can help people to do this kind of
    >>things (in my opinion).

    >
    >
    > Yes, OpenBSD does attract the more technical user (or repel the less
    > technical, as the case may be). A good argument can be made that this
    > attractiveness should not be compromised to pander to other groups - for
    > example, putting KDE in the base install would not be appreciated by the
    > majority of the userbase.
    >
    > However, that's no reason not to allow KDE. In fact, it wouldn't hurt
    > OpenBSD to be seen as slightly more user-friendly [1].


    Yes, I agree, the same as before.

    Manuel

  3. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    In article <%hRrh.114811$Fk1.704994@twister2.libero.it>,
    Manuel wrote:

    >Yes I know this, but I believe there is a philosophy under the OpenBSD
    >development, so I think these desktop system go against it.
    >Too fancy, too knobs...


    You so totally don't know what you are talking about.

  4. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Marc Espie ha scritto:

    >>Yes I know this, but I believe there is a philosophy under the OpenBSD
    >>development, so I think these desktop system go against it.
    >>Too fancy, too knobs...


    > You so totally don't know what you are talking about.


    Why?
    Where I'm wrong?
    Ok, maybe it's only one my idea, but, where is it in contrast with the
    developers idea?
    Except the goals, I also claim to make the things just work, without the
    unnecessary...
    And the fancy graphic etc, in this case, is unnecessary.
    Manuel

  5. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    >>>>> "Clever" == Clever Monkey writes:

    Clever> I'm sure you have considered this, but I don't think anyone who is
    Clever> involved with official OpenBSD releases cares at all if it is
    Clever> considered mainstream.

    I was addressing only the point about the reason that Ubuntu is the most
    popular Linux Distro is that it has a live CD. I showed that there are
    probably many factors involved.

    Clever> These people aren't interested in OS popularity contests, and are
    Clever> unlikely to be convinced otherwise.

    Similar to the way I feel about Perl. I don't care how many people are
    using Perl, as long as *I* get to use Perl.

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095

    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  6. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    The Live CD is a great idea. I would use it as a learning tool.
    Some Linux Live CDs can use auxillary storage to save changes
    to the CD. Is that a possibility for your Live CD?

    Thanks,
    Dave Feustel

  7. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:27:09 -0600, dave wrote:

    > The Live CD is a great idea. I would use it as a learning tool.
    > Some Linux Live CDs can use auxillary storage to save changes
    > to the CD. Is that a possibility for your Live CD?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Dave Feustel


    No, Dave, there is no automated saving. My intention is not to have
    people use this *instead* of installing, but, to use it to determine if
    they would want to install or not.

    There is information on how to save information, and how to add packages.
    See the FAQ: http://jggimi.homeip.net/livecd/faq.html

    --
    Replying directly will get you locally blacklisted.
    Change the address; use my first name in front of the @ if you want to
    communicate privately.


  8. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:16:26 -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

    >>>>>> "Clever" == Clever Monkey writes:

    >
    > Clever> I'm sure you have considered this, but I don't think anyone who is
    > Clever> involved with official OpenBSD releases cares at all if it is
    > Clever> considered mainstream.
    >
    > I was addressing only the point about the reason that Ubuntu is the most
    > popular Linux Distro is that it has a live CD. I showed that there are
    > probably many factors involved.
    >
    > Clever> These people aren't interested in OS popularity contests, and are
    > Clever> unlikely to be convinced otherwise.
    >
    > Similar to the way I feel about Perl. I don't care how many people are
    > using Perl, as long as *I* get to use Perl.


    I have altered the "why" question in the FAQ, and it may help the ...
    "political" discussion about the value of such an .iso stay focused.

    http://jggimi.homeip.net/livecd/faq.html
    ----------

    Why did you make these LiveCDs available to the public?

    To aid with OS familiarization and to aid with hardware testing:

    * To allow curious people the opportunity to try out an OpenBSD
    environment without actually installing it.

    * To allow existing users the ability to easily test out new hardware
    without changes to what is on hard drive. This might be for the
    purpose of testing a system or peripheral device in a retail store, or
    similar situations.

    * To give a new user the opportunity to try the OS first, before
    making the decision on whether to conduct a standard installation.

    * It could also be used as a "rescue disc" for production
    environments, if desired, though most production environments would
    have installation media, network boot, or some other form of recovery
    process in place.

    To be clear, the purpose of these LiveCDs is to make testing of the OS
    easier. They are not used to install the OS on hard drive, and are not
    intended to advocate OpenBSD as the "OS for the masses." The OpenBSD
    Project has no interest in taking over the world, or winning any
    popularity contests. The project is run by the developers for the
    developers, and we lucky users go along for the ride (though many support
    the Project in a variety of ways).

    LiveCDs have been produced over time by members of the community for a
    number of different reasons. Those that were made available to the
    public -- that I am aware of -- have been special-purpose rather than
    generic OpenBSD.

    The OpenBSD installation process is quick and easy. But, for the new user,
    the process of doing the install can be intimidating -- and possibly
    risks losing data -- due to manual partitioning. These LiveCDs may help a
    new user decide whether or not to make that minimal, but required,
    intellectual investment in partitioning.

    --
    Replying directly will get you locally blacklisted.
    Change the address; use my first name in front of the @ if you want to
    communicate privately.


  9. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Josh Grosse ha scritto:
    > On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:16:26 -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>>>>>"Clever" == Clever Monkey writes:

    >>
    >>Clever> I'm sure you have considered this, but I don't think anyone who is
    >>Clever> involved with official OpenBSD releases cares at all if it is
    >>Clever> considered mainstream.
    >>
    >>I was addressing only the point about the reason that Ubuntu is the most
    >>popular Linux Distro is that it has a live CD. I showed that there are
    >>probably many factors involved.
    >>
    >>Clever> These people aren't interested in OS popularity contests, and are
    >>Clever> unlikely to be convinced otherwise.
    >>
    >>Similar to the way I feel about Perl. I don't care how many people are
    >>using Perl, as long as *I* get to use Perl.

    >
    >
    > I have altered the "why" question in the FAQ, and it may help the ...
    > "political" discussion about the value of such an .iso stay focused.
    >
    > http://jggimi.homeip.net/livecd/faq.html
    > ----------
    >
    > Why did you make these LiveCDs available to the public?
    >
    > To aid with OS familiarization and to aid with hardware testing:
    >
    > * To allow curious people the opportunity to try out an OpenBSD
    > environment without actually installing it.
    >
    > * To allow existing users the ability to easily test out new hardware
    > without changes to what is on hard drive. This might be for the
    > purpose of testing a system or peripheral device in a retail store, or
    > similar situations.
    >
    > * To give a new user the opportunity to try the OS first, before
    > making the decision on whether to conduct a standard installation.
    >
    > * It could also be used as a "rescue disc" for production
    > environments, if desired, though most production environments would
    > have installation media, network boot, or some other form of recovery
    > process in place.
    >
    > To be clear, the purpose of these LiveCDs is to make testing of the OS
    > easier. They are not used to install the OS on hard drive, and are not
    > intended to advocate OpenBSD as the "OS for the masses." The OpenBSD
    > Project has no interest in taking over the world, or winning any
    > popularity contests. The project is run by the developers for the
    > developers, and we lucky users go along for the ride (though many support
    > the Project in a variety of ways).
    >
    > LiveCDs have been produced over time by members of the community for a
    > number of different reasons. Those that were made available to the
    > public -- that I am aware of -- have been special-purpose rather than
    > generic OpenBSD.
    >
    > The OpenBSD installation process is quick and easy. But, for the new user,
    > the process of doing the install can be intimidating -- and possibly
    > risks losing data -- due to manual partitioning. These LiveCDs may help a
    > new user decide whether or not to make that minimal, but required,
    > intellectual investment in partitioning.
    >


    Why then do you make a live cd with the base system and some usefull
    ports, instead of window manager, this really help who will use the
    system, and as a rescue disk! I can't rescue anything with KDE.
    Manuel

  10. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    You're wrong to think that having KDE in ports is contrary to OpenBSD goals.
    Just think about it, we want the best security we want, without compromise.
    There is absolutely no reason to restrict that to servers, and to not care
    about desktop systems. If you think that, in 2007, security only means
    firewalls and virus scanners, you're mistaken.

    This is all the same game: having OpenBSD running correctly on the desktop
    means we get to fix more ****-ups, and make things more secure for everyone.

    Say you have an OpenBSD firewall, and then use your brand new IE7 (or
    windows firefox) to surf on the internet. How secure are you ? why do
    you care about security, and what for ?

    just think about it.

    Also, I'm fed up of this restricted view that OpenBSD is only a server OS.
    You can pretty well function with OpenBSD as a desktop system as well.

  11. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    On 01/18/07 4:08 PM, Manuel wrote:

    > And if you use the cdrom40.fs?
    >
    > "The i386 boot and installation 2.88MB
    > floppy image that contains almost all OpenBSD
    > drivers; see below."


    There's still a handful of things missing, although I can't remember
    what they are right now (and they might differ by platform). Besides,
    cdXX.iso will let me see if OpenBSD will install on a particular system.
    A livecd will let me see if I can actually _use_ it...

    --
    Chris Odorjan - codorjan@gmail.com - http://www.execulink.com/~bobnet/

  12. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:31:25 -0500, Josh Grosse wrote:

    > My intention is not to have
    > people use this *instead* of installing, but, to use it to determine if
    > they would want to install or not.


    Nice work Josh. Always remember the 5% factor in society. For 5% of the
    people out there, you will walk on water in their eyes no whether you
    deserve it or not. Conversely there is another 5% for whom nothing will
    satisfy. Press on.

  13. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Marc Espie wrote:
    > You're wrong to think that having KDE in ports is contrary to OpenBSD goals.
    > Just think about it, we want the best security we want, without compromise.
    > There is absolutely no reason to restrict that to servers, and to not care
    > about desktop systems. If you think that, in 2007, security only means
    > firewalls and virus scanners, you're mistaken.
    >
    > This is all the same game: having OpenBSD running correctly on the desktop
    > means we get to fix more ****-ups, and make things more secure for everyone.
    >
    > Say you have an OpenBSD firewall, and then use your brand new IE7 (or
    > windows firefox) to surf on the internet. How secure are you ? why do
    > you care about security, and what for ?
    >
    > just think about it.
    >
    > Also, I'm fed up of this restricted view that OpenBSD is only a server OS.
    > You can pretty well function with OpenBSD as a desktop system as well.


    I have been using OpenBSD as my desktop OS for more than 3 years now and
    I really like it. And it's fun being able to set up my own network.
    Working with OpenBSD presents learning opportunities without end IMHO.

  14. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:44:00 +0000, Manuel wrote:

    > Josh Grosse ha scritto:

    [snip]
    >> * It could also be used as a "rescue disc" for production
    >> environments, if desired, though most production environments would
    >> have installation media, network boot, or some other form of recovery
    >> process in place.
    >>
    >> To be clear, the purpose of these LiveCDs is to make testing of the OS
    >> easier. They are not used to install the OS on hard drive, and are not
    >> intended to advocate OpenBSD as the "OS for the masses." ...


    > Why then do you make a live cd with the base system and some usefull
    > ports, instead of window manager, this really help who will use the
    > system, and as a rescue disk! I can't rescue anything with KDE.


    There must be a language problem, because you are not reading what I
    wrote. I wrote that a disc *could* be used for that purpose. Anyone
    with the OS in production would be unlikely to need it. If you don't have
    good DR plans, and test them regularly, none of these .iso files will be
    much help to you anyway.

    As far as I can tell, you object to this service from fear of some
    kind of "newbie pollution". If your objection is having to wade through
    newbie posts on misc@, ports@, or even here on this low volume newsgroup,
    then use tools that let you more effectively manage mailing list e-mail
    (or news) than you are using now. T-bird is a wonderful mail client for
    html-based mail, but AFAICR it doesn't manage e-mail by threads. (I
    understand it gets relatively poor reviews as an nntp client, too.)

    --
    Replying directly will get you locally blacklisted.
    Change the address; use my first name in front of the @ if you want to
    communicate privately.


  15. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Josh Grosse ha scritto:
    > On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:44:00 +0000, Manuel wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Josh Grosse ha scritto:

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >>> * It could also be used as a "rescue disc" for production
    >>> environments, if desired, though most production environments would
    >>> have installation media, network boot, or some other form of recovery
    >>> process in place.
    >>>
    >>>To be clear, the purpose of these LiveCDs is to make testing of the OS
    >>>easier. They are not used to install the OS on hard drive, and are not
    >>>intended to advocate OpenBSD as the "OS for the masses." ...

    >
    >
    >
    >>Why then do you make a live cd with the base system and some usefull
    >>ports, instead of window manager, this really help who will use the
    >>system, and as a rescue disk! I can't rescue anything with KDE.

    >
    >
    > There must be a language problem, because you are not reading what I
    > wrote. I wrote that a disc *could* be used for that purpose. Anyone
    > with the OS in production would be unlikely to need it. If you don't have
    > good DR plans, and test them regularly, none of these .iso files will be
    > much help to you anyway.
    >
    > As far as I can tell, you object to this service from fear of some
    > kind of "newbie pollution". If your objection is having to wade through
    > newbie posts on misc@, ports@, or even here on this low volume newsgroup,
    > then use tools that let you more effectively manage mailing list e-mail
    > (or news) than you are using now. T-bird is a wonderful mail client for
    > html-based mail, but AFAICR it doesn't manage e-mail by threads. (I
    > understand it gets relatively poor reviews as an nntp client, too.)
    >

    Of course, when one don't know what to say, he speaks about the
    erroneous software one use.
    In this post I have left a chance for you: I can't block you to made the
    live, then at least made a usefull live, just with good software, that
    can really help the user.
    I've said I can fix OpenBSD problems also with the cd40.iso.
    Ok, but if I need to fix an ext2fs partition?
    There isn't ext2fs tools in that cd (are in the ports), so, in this
    case, put some kind of software can really help.
    Of course KDE can't help in this case.
    Especially if my computer is really old.
    Manuel

  16. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Marc Espie ha scritto:
    > You're wrong to think that having KDE in ports is contrary to OpenBSD goals.
    > Just think about it, we want the best security we want, without compromise.
    > There is absolutely no reason to restrict that to servers, and to not care
    > about desktop systems. If you think that, in 2007, security only means
    > firewalls and virus scanners, you're mistaken.
    >
    > This is all the same game: having OpenBSD running correctly on the desktop
    > means we get to fix more ****-ups, and make things more secure for everyone.
    >
    > Say you have an OpenBSD firewall, and then use your brand new IE7 (or
    > windows firefox) to surf on the internet. How secure are you ? why do
    > you care about security, and what for ?
    >
    > just think about it.
    >
    > Also, I'm fed up of this restricted view that OpenBSD is only a server OS.
    > You can pretty well function with OpenBSD as a desktop system as well.


    If you read my other post, you can understand that I'm not contrary to
    KDE on the ports.
    I've tought as a solution for some other kind of problem: how to keep
    "strange" users with "strange" requests far from OpenBSD.
    Manuel

  17. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    In article ,
    Manuel wrote:
    >I've tought as a solution for some other kind of problem: how to keep
    >"strange" users with "strange" requests far from OpenBSD.
    > Manuel


    The solution is pretty simple: no strings attached. You don't have to
    listen to strange requests if you don't want to.

    It's a free OS.

    People can do what they want with it.
    I don't actually care what they decide to do with it.

    I'm just commenting on the `official' party line of OpenBSD.
    I think I know what at least some of the developers' goals are,
    by definition, and also because I talk with a lot of them every day

  18. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:22:10 +0000, Manuel wrote:

    >>>Why then do you make a live cd with the base system and some usefull
    >>>ports, instead of window manager, this really help who will use the
    >>>system, and as a rescue disk! I can't rescue anything with KDE.


    I have reread your posts in this thread, and I have yet to find
    anything in your arguments that would change my perception --
    namely, that you still do not understand the purposes of my
    offering.

    There have been any number of special-built OpenBSD LiveCDs produced over
    the last several years, such as OliveBSD, the Live-CD Firewall, Anonym.OS,
    kaos.theory, and Fugulta. There are more, this is just the ones I know
    about.

    >> ...As far as I can tell, you object to this service from fear of some
    >> kind of "newbie pollution". If your objection is having to wade through
    >> newbie posts on misc@, ports@, or even here on this low volume newsgroup,
    >> then use tools that let you more effectively manage mailing list e-mail
    >> (or news) than you are using now. T-bird is a wonderful mail client for
    >> html-based mail, but AFAICR it doesn't manage e-mail by threads. (I
    >> understand it gets relatively poor reviews as an nntp client, too.)
    >>

    > Of course, when one don't know what to say, he speaks about the
    > erroneous software one use.


    Since I still have no real understanding of why you are opposed to this
    offering, I was just making a guess: that you don't want to have to
    read messages about KDE/Gnome/XFCE and other newbie concerns. If you used
    a different tool, you could ***eliminate*** any incoming e-mail (or news
    posting) that had mention of any of these in the text, without ever having
    to read them or even know they arrived. You cannot do that with the tool
    you use today.

    I did not, and still do not understand the root cause of your ill will
    towards this simple offering. Recall, please, that *you* entered the
    conversation by suggesting that these three very popular desktop
    environments be *removed from the tree*. The concerns you've tried
    to raise in this thread appear to me to be normative, elitist, and
    disjointed. The latter may be due to the way Usenet communication causes
    threads to twist and turn, however.

    > In this post I have left a chance for you: I can't block you to

    made the
    > live, then at least made a usefull live, just with good software, that
    > can really help the user.
    > I've said I can fix OpenBSD problems also with the cd40.iso. Ok, but if
    > I need to fix an ext2fs partition? There isn't ext2fs tools in that cd
    > (are in the ports), so, in this case, put some kind of software can
    > really help. Of course KDE can't help in this case. Especially if my
    > computer is really old.


    There are many Linux LiveCDs that could be used with Linux environments,
    you could pick any that meet your particular needs for managing Linux
    platforms. But, since you appear to have a need of an OpenBSD LiveCD with
    Linux administration tools installed on it, you are certainly welcome to
    make your own.

    As I stated, these ISOs *could* be used for rescue or administrative
    tasks -- they contain the complete Userland and have much more
    administrative and networking tools than bsd.rd -- but that is *not*
    their primary purpose. These LiveCDs were designed for testing and
    familarization.

    TESTING: The bsd.rd ramdisk environments, in any form, on any type of
    boot media, do not contain the complete GENERIC kernel, nor do they have
    an MP-capable kernel. They have an extremely limited set of Userland
    tools. Your suggestion that cd*.iso or cdrom*.fs should be used for
    new hardware testing and inspection is implausable.

    FAMILIARIZATION: These discs may be used in console mode (even serial
    console), and I have offered several X environments, to which you
    have objected. You are already an OpenBSD user, so you don't need to
    familiarize yourself with the OS.

    As far as value to the OpenBSD Project; I think it is clear. The more new
    users in the community, the more the community benefits:

    * CDs and merchandise sales fund OS development
    * Financial donations fund OS development
    * Hardware donations drive new technology development
    * Large groups of users testing -current (as -beta) twice per year
    improves -release quality.
    * Active users testing ports on different architectures drives a larger,
    more robust ports tree, making the OS more useful to more potential
    users -- leveraging all of the above.

    These are tangible benefits.

    --
    Replying directly will get you locally blacklisted.
    Change the address; use my first name in front of the @ if you want to
    communicate privately.


  19. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta

    Two typos to correct, I should not type late at night.

    On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 01:30:02 -0500, Josh Grosse wrote:

    > There have been any number of special-built OpenBSD LiveCDs produced over
    > the last several years, such as OliveBSD, the Live-CD Firewall, Anonym.OS,
    > kaos.theory, and Fugulta. There are more, this is just the ones I know

    ^^^^
    "ones" -> "list"

    > about.


    [snip]

    > * Active users testing ports on different architectures drives a larger,

    ^^^

    "testing new ports"

    > more robust ports tree, making the OS more useful to more potential
    > users -- leveraging all of the above.


    --
    Replying directly will get you locally blacklisted.
    Change the address; use my first name in front of the @ if you want to
    communicate privately.


  20. Re: OpenBSD LiveCD -- public beta


    mr.b wrote:


    *plonked* for egregious stupidity


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