VAX OpenBSD packages - BSD

This is a discussion on VAX OpenBSD packages - BSD ; I'm going to be getting a MicroVAX 3100/m40, and it's installed with OpenBSD. I was looking at the OpenBSD packages to see what I might need to install, and I can't find any packages for gcc and g++. Other architectures ...

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Thread: VAX OpenBSD packages

  1. VAX OpenBSD packages

    I'm going to be getting a MicroVAX 3100/m40, and it's installed with
    OpenBSD. I was looking at the OpenBSD packages to see what I might need
    to install, and I can't find any packages for gcc and g++. Other
    architectures (for instance Alpha) have packages gcc-3.3-20050223.tgz
    and g++-3.3-20050223.tgz, but no mention of them for VAX in any of 3.5,
    3.6 or 3.7. Is this an oversight, or are they not available as packages
    but included in the standard release (the hardware current status says
    that gcc optimiser has problems, so at least gcc works in some ways).
    Is there any other C compiler for VAX/OpenBSD?

    Chris C

  2. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.


  3. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On 27 Jul 2005 11:13:41 -0700, "tedu" wrote:

    >you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.


    That's going to take a wee while on a microvax 3100.
    --
    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

  4. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:06:45 +0100, Greg Hennessy
    wrote:

    > On 27 Jul 2005 11:13:41 -0700, "tedu" wrote:
    >
    >>you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.

    >
    > That's going to take a wee while on a microvax 3100.


    Time is not the essence . How many millifortnights do you reckon?
    Longer than on a K6-2/500?

    What C compiler comes as standard? (And having built gcc, does that
    build it as a package so I could upload the binary somewhere? I haven't
    worked out how the package/ports stuff works on BSD.)

    Chris C

  5. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:28:39 +0100, Chris Croughton
    wrote:

    >On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:06:45 +0100, Greg Hennessy
    > wrote:
    >
    >> On 27 Jul 2005 11:13:41 -0700, "tedu" wrote:
    >>
    >>>you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.

    >>
    >> That's going to take a wee while on a microvax 3100.

    >
    >Time is not the essence . How many millifortnights do you reckon?
    >Longer than on a K6-2/500?


    A K6-2/500 would be a veritable cray in comparison to a uvax 3100.

    Its quite possible that the K6 could emulate a 3100 quicker using SIMH than
    the real thing. Something you might like to utilise when building software
    for it.

    Personally I'd be inclined to use netbsd on a Vax. As the cross platform
    build.sh environment can be hosted on just about anything unix related,
    cutting out the wait.


    >What C compiler comes as standard?


    gcc

    > (And having built gcc, does that
    >build it as a package so I could upload the binary somewhere?


    What version of OpenBSD have you got on there ? gcc comes as standard in
    the comp??.tgz base tarball.


    >I haven't
    >worked out how the package/ports stuff works on BSD.)


    :-), you joining us on the darkside Chris.


    It's easy, packages are precompiled binaries ready for install with
    pkg_add, why you dont see one underneath

    packages/vax/gc*

    is more than likely due to compile time constraints with the hardware.

    You can point pkg_add at local or remote copies of any package for install.
    Ports are an idea that gentoo nicked and still managed to get wrong.

    They are a complete build environment which create packages for onward
    installation.

    http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#Ports


    Something I cannot praise highly enough with the *BSDs is the quality of
    documentation. I've used commercial unix products which werent as good.



    Careful now, you might like it ;-)



    greg

    --
    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

  6. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:43:27 +0100, Greg Hennessy
    wrote:

    > On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:28:39 +0100, Chris Croughton
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:06:45 +0100, Greg Hennessy
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 27 Jul 2005 11:13:41 -0700, "tedu" wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.
    >>>
    >>> That's going to take a wee while on a microvax 3100.

    >>
    >>Time is not the essence . How many millifortnights do you reckon?
    >>Longer than on a K6-2/500?

    >
    > A K6-2/500 would be a veritable cray in comparison to a uvax 3100.


    Ah. /That/ fast . (Not knocking the K6-2/500, it's a superb
    'workhorse' processor, incredibly stable and doesn't blow up even when
    some idiot stops the CPU fan -- mentioning no names of course, but I
    LARTed myself well for it!)

    > Its quite possible that the K6 could emulate a 3100 quicker using SIMH than
    > the real thing. Something you might like to utilise when building software
    > for it.


    I might do that on one of my more powerful Linux boxes (probably the
    Gentoo one, that's an Athlon 1800XP with oodles of memory and doesn't
    usually do very much). If I can fathom out how to get SIMH to map my
    drives into its space...

    > Personally I'd be inclined to use netbsd on a Vax. As the cross platform
    > build.sh environment can be hosted on just about anything unix related,
    > cutting out the wait.


    NetBSD rather than OpenBSD? Why? (If this is a flamewar question, and
    I suspect it might be, feel free to respond in email or point at a
    better discussion place).

    >>What C compiler comes as standard?

    >
    > gcc
    >
    >> (And having built gcc, does that
    >>build it as a package so I could upload the binary somewhere?

    >
    > What version of OpenBSD have you got on there ? gcc comes as standard in
    > the comp??.tgz base tarball.


    I don't know at the moment, one of the recent ones (so 3.5 or later).
    I'll be picking it up on Sunday.

    >>I haven't
    >>worked out how the package/ports stuff works on BSD.)

    >
    >:-), you joining us on the darkside Chris.


    Actually, I have tried one of the BSDs before, I don't remember which
    one, on a machine I later had to scrap (nothing to do with the OS, major
    hardware failure because of a PSU which decided that 8 volts was a
    close enough approximation to a 5V supply!). It reminded me of Unix as
    it used to be, but with shell variables (when I was at university we
    actually did get a version of the shell with single letter variables!
    Running on a PDP-11/40 with 192KB of core...) and a bit more disk space.

    > It's easy, packages are precompiled binaries ready for install with
    > pkg_add, why you dont see one underneath
    >
    > packages/vax/gc*
    >
    > is more than likely due to compile time constraints with the hardware.
    >
    > You can point pkg_add at local or remote copies of any package for install.
    > Ports are an idea that gentoo nicked and still managed to get wrong.
    >
    > They are a complete build environment which create packages for onward
    > installation.
    >
    > http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#Ports


    I suspect I still won't understand it until I try using it "in anger".
    Same happened with dpkg and with emerge.

    > Something I cannot praise highly enough with the *BSDs is the quality of
    > documentation. I've used commercial unix products which werent as good.


    Not difficult, documentation of Bell Labs Unix was never exactly
    friendly .

    > Careful now, you might like it ;-)


    I have no problem with running many 'flavours' of Unices, I have a
    Solaris box, Linux Debian and Gentoo, will have OpenVMS and BSD on
    Vaxen, probably looking at an early BSD on 11/23. I don't have the
    Digital Unix or whatever they called it on the Alphas, though, that was
    a horrible variant...

    Chris C

  7. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:44 +0100, Chris Croughton
    wrote:

    >>>Time is not the essence . How many millifortnights do you reckon?
    >>>Longer than on a K6-2/500?

    >>
    >> A K6-2/500 would be a veritable cray in comparison to a uvax 3100.

    >
    >Ah. /That/ fast . (Not knocking the K6-2/500, it's a superb
    >'workhorse' processor, incredibly stable and doesn't blow up even when
    >some idiot stops the CPU fan -- mentioning no names of course, but I
    >LARTed myself well for it!)


    :-)

    >
    >> Its quite possible that the K6 could emulate a 3100 quicker using SIMH than
    >> the real thing. Something you might like to utilise when building software
    >> for it.

    >
    >I might do that on one of my more powerful Linux boxes (probably the
    >Gentoo one, that's an Athlon 1800XP with oodles of memory and doesn't
    >usually do very much). If I can fathom out how to get SIMH to map my
    >drives into its space...


    Strange, I've never had problems using it before.

    >
    >> Personally I'd be inclined to use netbsd on a Vax. As the cross platform
    >> build.sh environment can be hosted on just about anything unix related,
    >> cutting out the wait.

    >
    >NetBSD rather than OpenBSD? Why? (If this is a flamewar question, and
    >I suspect it might be, feel free to respond in email or point at a
    >better discussion place).


    No flamewars, just pure practicality, netbsd can be cross built for any of
    its supported platforms on just about anything which is even vaguely posix
    compliant (I have heard rumours about Cygwin being used).

    This USENIX paper will give you all the gory detail

    http://www.usenix.org/events/bsdcon0...tml/index.html


    I have moved without major difficulty between all 3 major *BSD variants
    depending on what I needed to do at the time. All have their place.

    Trying to figure out a use for Dragonfly ATM :-).

    >> What version of OpenBSD have you got on there ? gcc comes as standard in
    >> the comp??.tgz base tarball.

    >
    >I don't know at the moment, one of the recent ones (so 3.5 or later).
    >I'll be picking it up on Sunday.


    Doing an upgrade is not the friendliest of processes, but if you follow the
    docs and notes its pretty straight forward.

    >
    >>>I haven't
    >>>worked out how the package/ports stuff works on BSD.)

    >>
    >>:-), you joining us on the darkside Chris.

    >
    >Actually, I have tried one of the BSDs before, I don't remember which
    >one, on a machine I later had to scrap (nothing to do with the OS, major
    >hardware failure because of a PSU which decided that 8 volts was a
    >close enough approximation to a 5V supply!). It reminded me of Unix as
    >it used to be,


    Those were my thoughts when I had a Popeye moment with Linux a few years
    back. Simple, consistent and a apart from some fun with Sys V muscle
    memory, a joy to use.

    1st used OpenBSD in anger because of PF, when PF started appearing on Free
    and Net started utilising those too.


    >> They are a complete build environment which create packages for onward
    >> installation.
    >>
    >> http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq8.html#Ports

    >
    >I suspect I still won't understand it until I try using it "in anger".
    >Same happened with dpkg and with emerge.


    You'll pick it up easy enough.

    >> Something I cannot praise highly enough with the *BSDs is the quality of
    >> documentation. I've used commercial unix products which werent as good.

    >
    >Not difficult, documentation of Bell Labs Unix was never exactly
    >friendly .


    LOL!


    >Digital Unix or whatever they called it on the Alphas, though, that was
    >a horrible variant...


    Agreed. OSF/1 was never quite fish or fowl.



    greg

    --
    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

  8. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:44:51 +0100, Greg Hennessy
    wrote:

    > On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:48:44 +0100, Chris Croughton
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I might do that on one of my more powerful Linux boxes (probably the
    >>Gentoo one, that's an Athlon 1800XP with oodles of memory and doesn't
    >>usually do very much). If I can fathom out how to get SIMH to map my
    >>drives into its space...

    >
    > Strange, I've never had problems using it before.


    It's just that I haven't really gotten into SIMH configuration yet. I
    have a PDP-11 emulator and Unix-7 on my system, just haven't really
    done more than play a bit.

    >>NetBSD rather than OpenBSD? Why? (If this is a flamewar question, and
    >>I suspect it might be, feel free to respond in email or point at a
    >>better discussion place).

    >
    > No flamewars, just pure practicality, netbsd can be cross built for any of
    > its supported platforms on just about anything which is even vaguely posix
    > compliant (I have heard rumours about Cygwin being used).


    Ah, I see. Whereas I assume this is not possible (or at least is more
    difficult) with OpenBSD?

    > This USENIX paper will give you all the gory detail
    >
    > http://www.usenix.org/events/bsdcon0...tml/index.html


    Hmm, not quite, I can't see where to get the source and took chain from
    in the first place. Or how to write the result to a CD for
    installation. But it's probably there somewhere...

    > I have moved without major difficulty between all 3 major *BSD variants
    > depending on what I needed to do at the time. All have their place.
    >
    > Trying to figure out a use for Dragonfly ATM :-).


    Catching trout?

    >>I don't know at the moment, one of the recent ones (so 3.5 or later).
    >>I'll be picking it up on Sunday.

    >
    > Doing an upgrade is not the friendliest of processes, but if you follow the
    > docs and notes its pretty straight forward.


    OK. I'll be asking if I get stuck ..

    >>Actually, I have tried one of the BSDs before, I don't remember which
    >>one, on a machine I later had to scrap (nothing to do with the OS, major
    >>hardware failure because of a PSU which decided that 8 volts was a
    >>close enough approximation to a 5V supply!). It reminded me of Unix as
    >>it used to be,

    >
    > Those were my thoughts when I had a Popeye moment with Linux a few years
    > back. Simple, consistent and a apart from some fun with Sys V muscle
    > memory, a joy to use.


    I can switch, just as I do with Windows

    > 1st used OpenBSD in anger because of PF, when PF started appearing on Free
    > and Net started utilising those too.


    Ah, that's right, it's why I was trying BSD, I was thinking of using it
    as a firewall. I didn't eventually, my Vigor 2300 does a good enough
    job (and is smaller and uses a lot less power).

    >>Digital Unix or whatever they called it on the Alphas, though, that was
    >>a horrible variant...

    >
    > Agreed. OSF/1 was never quite fish or fowl.


    I dunno, I think it was pretty foul .

    It was OSF/1 when I first used it, then they changed the name. At least
    once...

    Chris C

  9. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:23:36 +0100, Chris Croughton
    wrote:


    >> No flamewars, just pure practicality, netbsd can be cross built for any of
    >> its supported platforms on just about anything which is even vaguely posix
    >> compliant (I have heard rumours about Cygwin being used).

    >
    >Ah, I see. Whereas I assume this is not possible (or at least is more
    >difficult) with OpenBSD?
    >
    >> This USENIX paper will give you all the gory detail
    >>
    >> http://www.usenix.org/events/bsdcon0...tml/index.html

    >
    >Hmm, not quite, I can't see where to get the source and took chain from
    >in the first place.


    You'll see :-)

    > Or how to write the result to a CD for
    >installation. But it's probably there somewhere...


    I'd be inclined to pull down one of the HEAD snapshots and take it from
    there.


    ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD-dail...x/INSTALL.html


    >
    >> I have moved without major difficulty between all 3 major *BSD variants
    >> depending on what I needed to do at the time. All have their place.
    >>
    >> Trying to figure out a use for Dragonfly ATM :-).

    >
    >Catching trout?


    LMAO! That's one use Matt Dillon hasnt found for it yet I bet.
    Must check if there's a /dev/hook.

    >
    >>>I don't know at the moment, one of the recent ones (so 3.5 or later).
    >>>I'll be picking it up on Sunday.

    >>
    >> Doing an upgrade is not the friendliest of processes, but if you follow the
    >> docs and notes its pretty straight forward.

    >
    >OK. I'll be asking if I get stuck ..


    :-)


    >> 1st used OpenBSD in anger because of PF, when PF started appearing on Free
    >> and Net started utilising those too.

    >
    >Ah, that's right, it's why I was trying BSD, I was thinking of using it
    >as a firewall. I didn't eventually, my Vigor 2300 does a good enough
    >job (and is smaller and uses a lot less power).


    True, if it was just packet filtering, it would be complete overkill.
    However by the time one has squid, snort,ntop , cacti and other goodies on
    there, even half a gig is a bit of a squeeze.

    Something like www.pfsense.com on a Nokia IP110 would fit the small, sweet
    and frugal bit though.

    >>>Digital Unix or whatever they called it on the Alphas, though, that was
    >>>a horrible variant...

    >>
    >> Agreed. OSF/1 was never quite fish or fowl.

    >
    >I dunno, I think it was pretty foul .


    LOL

    >
    >It was OSF/1 when I first used it, then they changed the name. At least
    >once...
    >


    I think that was to disguise it's less than humble origins.


    greg
    --
    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

  10. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    Greg Hennessy wrote:
    > On 27 Jul 2005 11:13:41 -0700, "tedu" wrote:
    > >you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.

    > That's going to take a wee while on a microvax 3100.


    It took over a day to build a NetBSD kernel on a 3100/M38, which is
    a little bit faster than an M30. I'd think a gcc build would take at
    least as long.

    Wolfgang

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    "spamtrap" is a valid address. For faster response, write to "rupp".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

  11. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On 1 Aug 2005 07:51:08 GMT, Wolfgang Rupp wrote:

    >Greg Hennessy wrote:
    >> On 27 Jul 2005 11:13:41 -0700, "tedu" wrote:
    >> >you can build gcc 3 for vax using ports.

    >> That's going to take a wee while on a microvax 3100.

    >
    >It took over a day to build a NetBSD kernel on a 3100/M38, which is
    >a little bit faster than an M30. I'd think a gcc build would take at
    >least as long.
    >


    If not longer, IIRC gcc build 1st compiles up a bootstrap and rebuilds the
    compiler twice to check for consistancy.


    greg
    --
    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

  12. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:43:27 +0100, Greg Hennessy
    wrote:

    > What version of OpenBSD have you got on there ? gcc comes as standard in
    > the comp??.tgz base tarball.


    It's a uVAX 3100/M40 running OpenBSD 3.5 GENERIC#41 (it says), talking
    on the serial port to an old laptop runing Debian 2.0 (yes, really!)
    with minicom and talking via a thin Ethernet cable, a 10baseT/BNC hub, a
    Gigabit switch and at least two 100baseT switches to this machine
    (Debian 'woody') using ssh. And having totally failed to find where on
    earth OpenBSD puts its local DNS server file (if it has any) I used scp
    to grab /etc/router.conf off this machine and told it to use this
    machine's DNS server and it was quite happy with that.

    It has gcc (and g++) 2.95.3, which is a respectably usable version.
    Sometime I'll try compiling gcc 4.x, all of it. As a "stress test" (the
    computer's or mine?).

    And it is, well, non-fast. But I suspect a lot faster than an original
    VAX 11/780, which I used to think was fast (except when we had 30+ users
    on it at a time, 1MB of memory was not enough!). But surprisingly not
    very noisy (the guy who sold it to me said that the disk sounded like a
    747 taking off -- he exaggerated, it's no louder than a DC10 ).
    Actually, I have plenty louder in my lounge -- and the uVAX would be
    quieter if it weren't on an aluminum box which makes a very good
    resonant cavity .

    So next question - should I upgrade to the latest version (3.7?)?

    Oh, and is there a hard disk partitioning program, and if so what? In
    particular, can it be repartitioned without data loss? Currently it
    has:

    Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
    /dev/sd0a 5.9G 359M 5.3G 6% /
    /dev/sd0e 1.7G 93.9M 1.5G 6% /home
    /dev/sd0d 504M 6.0K 478M 0% /tmp

    which is rather silly, the / and /home partitions should be the other
    way round. Theoretically I should be able to remote mount a directory
    on my fileserver, but at the moment I just get

    mount_nfs: bad MNT RPC: RPC: Timed out

    which is odd. I wonder whether there's an NFS version clash, but
    showmount works happily with that server.,.

    (The uVAX 3100/M90, allegedly installed with OpenVMS, I can't get even
    near a boot prompt. Or indeed to produce any characters that makes
    sense on a terminal whatever speed I set it to (anything from 110
    upwards, including oddities like 135 and 7200 -- VT100s are useful that
    way). The disks -- RZ25s -- lights flash but I can't feel or hear them
    spinning up...)

    Chris C

  13. Re: VAX OpenBSD packages

    On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:12:38 +0100, Chris Croughton
    wrote:

    Just back from hols :-)


    >And it is, well, non-fast.


    LOL

    > But I suspect a lot faster than an original
    >VAX 11/780,


    It would be in VUPs terms.

    > which I used to think was fast (except when we had 30+ users
    >on it at a time, 1MB of memory was not enough!). But surprisingly not
    >very noisy (the guy who sold it to me said that the disk sounded like a
    >747 taking off -- he exaggerated, it's no louder than a DC10 ).
    >Actually, I have plenty louder in my lounge -- and the uVAX would be
    >quieter if it weren't on an aluminum box which makes a very good
    >resonant cavity .


    DEC never made them quiet, industrial strength cases though.

    >So next question - should I upgrade to the latest version (3.7?)?


    As I said before, I would tend to run NetBSD on there due to the ease of
    cross building binaries elsewhere.

    3.7 should work fine on it.

    >Oh, and is there a hard disk partitioning program, and if so what? In
    >particular, can it be repartitioned without data loss?


    Cant say I've seen anything for UFS. Anytime I've done this in the past, is
    to do a dump/restore over nfs.

    > Currently it
    >has:


    >
    >Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
    >/dev/sd0a 5.9G 359M 5.3G 6% /
    >/dev/sd0e 1.7G 93.9M 1.5G 6% /home
    >/dev/sd0d 504M 6.0K 478M 0% /tmp


    You'll have plenty of space, OpenBSD does an upgrade in place, you'll have
    to incrementally upgrade through 3.6 -> 3.7.

    >which is rather silly, the / and /home partitions should be the other
    >way round.


    Quite.

    > Theoretically I should be able to remote mount a directory
    >on my fileserver, but at the moment I just get


    > mount_nfs: bad MNT RPC: RPC: Timed out
    >
    >which is odd. I wonder whether there's an NFS version clash, but
    >showmount works happily with that server.,.



    PF loaded ?

    pfctl -d should get rid of it temporarily.



    >(The uVAX 3100/M90, allegedly installed with OpenVMS, I can't get even
    >near a boot prompt. Or indeed to produce any characters that makes
    >sense on a terminal whatever speed I set it to (anything from 110
    >upwards, including oddities like 135 and 7200 -- VT100s are useful that
    >way). The disks -- RZ25s -- lights flash but I can't feel or hear them
    >spinning up...)



    Hmmm, that shouldnt stop you getting to a console prompt.


    Greg






    >
    >Chris C

    --
    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

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