Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System? - BSD

This is a discussion on Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System? - BSD ; I understand that it has many problems: 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade' the system. 2. From reading this group, it only ...

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Thread: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

  1. Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    I understand that it has many problems:
    1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    the system.
    2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.
    3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is 'ported'
    from other operating systems.
    4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who contribute
    to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem to be the ultimate
    automated system to massage the egos of geeky coders.

    Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

  2. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    pasta writes:

    > I understand that it has many problems:
    > 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    > software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    > the system.
    > 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.
    > 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is 'ported'
    > from other operating systems.
    > 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who contribute
    > to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem to be the ultimate
    > automated system to massage the egos of geeky coders.


    Some people get their kicks contributing software. Others get their
    kicks trolling usenet...

    -- Patrick

  3. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:00:19 UTC, pasta wrote:

    > I understand that it has many problems:
    > 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    > software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    > the system.
    > 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.
    > 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is 'ported'
    > from other operating systems.
    > 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who contribute
    > to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem to be the ultimate
    > automated system to massage the egos of geeky coders.
    >
    > Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?


    I think you have the wrong newsgroup.

    comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.advocacy is that way =====>

    And alt.trolls is <====== that way.
    --
    Bob Eager
    UNIX since v6..
    http://tinyurl.com/2xqr6h


  4. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    In article ,
    pasta writes:

    > Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?


    I'll feed the troll this one time.

    As a HOME user, I use FreeBSD because it it (1) reliable, (2)
    stable, and (3) secure, characteristics sadly lacking in either
    Gates Universal Computer Virus and the majority of the Linux
    distros I've used. I also use it because, unlike GUCV, it's
    free and follows the open software paradigm, as is and does
    the software available for it.

    If you're unwilling to invest a bit of thought and effort in
    setting up and maintaining an operating system such as FBSD,
    then you SHOULD stick with the point'n'click kiddies.

    Now, go tell your mommy she wants you.



    --
    Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
    -----
    "People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
    hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer


  5. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    In article ,
    pasta wrote:
    >I understand that it has many problems:
    >1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    >software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    >the system.


    The upgrades to FreeBSD are far easier than any other OS I've ever
    used with the exception of Irix on $$ high priced SGI servers
    and workstation.

    >2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.


    There are hundreds of printers listed in the utilities.

    >3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is
    >'ported' from other operating systems.


    Hm. That's strange. I have clients with commercial backup
    software designed expressly for FreeBSD.

    >4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who
    >contribute to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem
    >to be the ultimate automated system to massage the egos of geeky
    >coders.


    It's the most reliable operating system I've used. I had one
    mail server up and running for over 700 days - and the only patches
    required were minor applications that did NOT need a reboot.

    >Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?


    I guess it depends upon the level of the HOME users expertise.
    If you want a FreeBSD based OS system that has a nice desktop
    use Apples OS/X. It's a fancy windowing system based upon
    FreeBSD code.

    If you don't like it try some other OS - there are plenty.

    You have OVER 350 distributions of Linux to try until you find the
    one you like.

    Bill
    Bill
    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

  6. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    Robert Melson wrote:
    > In article ,
    > pasta writes:
    >
    >> Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    >
    > I'll feed the troll this one time.

    For your infomation, I have a right to ask questions. I dont really
    require your limited 'expertise' as I have had help from others. I will
    make sure I dont see any more of rants.

  7. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    Bill Vermillion wrote:
    > In article ,
    > pasta wrote:
    >> I understand that it has many problems:
    >> 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    >> software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    >> the system.

    >
    > The upgrades to FreeBSD are far easier than any other OS I've ever
    > used with the exception of Irix on $$ high priced SGI servers
    > and workstation.
    >
    >> 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.

    >
    > There are hundreds of printers listed in the utilities.
    >
    >> 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is
    >> 'ported' from other operating systems.

    >
    > Hm. That's strange. I have clients with commercial backup
    > software designed expressly for FreeBSD.
    >
    >> 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who
    >> contribute to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem
    >> to be the ultimate automated system to massage the egos of geeky
    >> coders.

    >
    > It's the most reliable operating system I've used. I had one
    > mail server up and running for over 700 days - and the only patches
    > required were minor applications that did NOT need a reboot.
    >
    >> Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    >
    > I guess it depends upon the level of the HOME users expertise.
    > If you want a FreeBSD based OS system that has a nice desktop
    > use Apples OS/X. It's a fancy windowing system based upon
    > FreeBSD code.
    >
    > If you don't like it try some other OS - there are plenty.
    >
    > You have OVER 350 distributions of Linux to try until you find the
    > one you like.
    >
    > Bill
    > Bill

    I have tried linux already and am thinking about trying FreeBSD which is
    why I have been reading here and why I have asked this question. I think
    I will try FreeBSD, but if I do need help I will try to ask elsewhere as
    people who post here seem to be very full of themselves (apart from your
    reply which was civil)
    Thank you

  8. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    pasta wrote:
    > I have tried linux already and am thinking about trying FreeBSD which is
    > why I have been reading here and why I have asked this question. I think
    > I will try FreeBSD, but if I do need help I will try to ask elsewhere as
    > people who post here seem to be very full of themselves (apart from your
    > reply which was civil)


    It all depends on what you're planning to do with your home machine:

    If you want to learn about operating systems and system administration
    your choice is just about any stable Unix-ish open source OS.

    If you want to do "home office and a little internet" you might be
    better off with Ubuntu or a similar pre-configured Linux distribution.

    After you've found your "OS of choice" read the installation notes
    and the FAQ for further information.

    You'll still have questions, but by then you'll have enough background
    information to phrase them a little more specific than "I read something
    was difficult, why would I want this?"


    Jens

  9. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:08:53 GMT, pasta wrote:
    > Robert Melson wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> pasta writes:
    >>
    >>> Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    >>
    >> I'll feed the troll this one time.

    >
    > For your infomation, I have a right to ask questions. I dont really
    > require your limited 'expertise' as I have had help from others. I
    > will make sure I dont see any more of rants.


    For your information too, when you ask loaded questions, you should be
    prepared to accept the loaded answers they may trigger.

    *plonk*


  10. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:11:12 GMT, pasta wrote:
    >Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >> snip...

    >
    > I have tried linux already and am thinking about trying FreeBSD which
    > is why I have been reading here and why I have asked this question. I
    > think I will try FreeBSD, but if I do need help I will try to ask
    > elsewhere as people who post here seem to be very full of themselves
    > (apart from your reply which was civil)


    You posted a question which sounded like you already assume that FreeBSD
    is worthless of even trying. This is probably the reason why some of
    the answers you received were angry.

    If you *do* try to use FreeBSD, you spend some time learning how it
    works, and you come back with specific questions about things that you
    want to learn more about, I'm sure that you will get far more useful
    answers.

    - Giorgos


  11. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    pasta wrote:

    Hello, rac! Why did you morph?

    > I understand that it has many problems:
    > 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    > software


    Sentence is unclear, but perhaps a reference to the upgrade to Xorg 7.2.
    A moderately painful update, but easy enough if you follow directions.

    > and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    > the system.


    Sentence is unclear, but perhaps a reference to cvsup?

    > 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.


    Your experience with a host-based Lexmark shows that "you get what you
    pay for". What happened to the other printer you were buying?

    > 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is 'ported'
    > from other operating systems.


    Let's be generous and say that's based on a fundamental
    misunderstanding.

    > 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who contribute
    > to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem to be the ultimate
    > automated system to massage the egos of geeky coders.


    Backhanded compliment combined with a troll; I'd give it a 6 out of 10.

    > Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?


    Freedom, speed, dependability. But that's not for everyone.

    --
    Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA

  12. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:11:12 UTC, pasta wrote:

    > Bill Vermillion wrote:
    > > In article ,
    > > pasta wrote:
    > >> I understand that it has many problems:
    > >> 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    > >> software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    > >> the system.

    > >
    > > The upgrades to FreeBSD are far easier than any other OS I've ever
    > > used with the exception of Irix on $$ high priced SGI servers
    > > and workstation.
    > >
    > >> 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.

    > >
    > > There are hundreds of printers listed in the utilities.
    > >
    > >> 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is
    > >> 'ported' from other operating systems.

    > >
    > > Hm. That's strange. I have clients with commercial backup
    > > software designed expressly for FreeBSD.
    > >
    > >> 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who
    > >> contribute to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem
    > >> to be the ultimate automated system to massage the egos of geeky
    > >> coders.

    > >
    > > It's the most reliable operating system I've used. I had one
    > > mail server up and running for over 700 days - and the only patches
    > > required were minor applications that did NOT need a reboot.
    > >
    > >> Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    > >
    > > I guess it depends upon the level of the HOME users expertise.
    > > If you want a FreeBSD based OS system that has a nice desktop
    > > use Apples OS/X. It's a fancy windowing system based upon
    > > FreeBSD code.
    > >
    > > If you don't like it try some other OS - there are plenty.
    > >
    > > You have OVER 350 distributions of Linux to try until you find the
    > > one you like.
    > >
    > > Bill
    > > Bill

    > I have tried linux already and am thinking about trying FreeBSD which is
    > why I have been reading here and why I have asked this question. I think
    > I will try FreeBSD, but if I do need help I will try to ask elsewhere as
    > people who post here seem to be very full of themselves (apart from your
    > reply which was civil)


    If you start off with an attack, what do you really expect?

    --
    Bob Eager
    UNIX since v6..
    http://tinyurl.com/2xqr6h


  13. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    In article ,
    pasta writes:
    > Robert Melson wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> pasta writes:
    >>
    >>> Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    >>
    >> I'll feed the troll this one time.

    > For your infomation, I have a right to ask questions. I dont really
    > require your limited 'expertise' as I have had help from others. I will
    > make sure I dont see any more of rants.


    Uh, chum? Nobody said you have no right to ask questions.
    But walking in anywhere with a chip on your shoulder and an
    attitude that you already know the answer is a suare
    guarantee that you're gonna piss somebody off.

    Ciao,
    Bob

    --
    Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
    -----
    "People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
    hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer


  14. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    [snip]
    >>
    >> For your infomation, I have a right to ask questions.


    This is a misconception; there is no "right" here.

    >> I dont really require your limited 'expertise' as I have had help from
    >> others.


    LOL! This exemplifies your mindset in a nutshell. He is a developer and if
    you wish to utilize FreeBSD you certainly require his expertise.

    >> I will make sure I dont see any more of rants.


    You sound young. You will get better results in life in general if you learn
    to adapt to standards of behavior that exist and had evolved before you
    discovered the Internet. Childlike behavior is very annoying to adults.
    Suggestion: Take a look at the following:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette

    http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

    http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.p...9a680/463c5922

    Really, I'm not trying to flame you. I'm merely trying to suggest it is your
    attitude which is in need of some adjustment. Open your mind to the idea
    that maybe it's you with the problem; not everyone else. If you realize
    this and change your ways you'd be very surprised at how helpful the gurus
    in this group can be when they choose.

    -Jason

    [snip]


  15. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    pasta wrote:

    > I understand that it has many problems:
    > 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    > software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    > the system.
    > 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of
    > printers. 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is
    > 'ported' from other operating systems.
    > 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who contribute
    > to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem to be the ultimate
    > automated system to massage the egos of geeky coders.
    >
    > Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?


    Few problems with the OS, secure but isn't too clever with desktop toys nor
    with Software driven plastic printers.

    Any PCL compliant laser or inkjet printer will work in ALL above OS usually
    without adding any specific drivers!!

    Four OS on this system xp, vista, linux and FreeBSD I use FreeBSD about 90%
    of the time.
    Others I mostly use to check web how pages will work/ look.

    1. Windows likely the best place to use Windows software anyway!
    Vista can't use a lot of Windows software!!!

    Upgrade: Well I port in a few extra applications: make install clean is
    pretty heavy stuff [NOT].

    Must admit I'm lazy about daily upgrades - Just wait load the next release.
    Though I do update XP, Vista I have not always bothered.
    - if it aint broke don't fix it -

    2. Recently an item on this news group re someone wanting desperately to
    write a printer driver for a Brother PSC.
    Suspicion led me to Google wherein I find the Printer, Scanner, Copier Fax
    costs $50 US. Really, is anyone going to spend hours writing a driver for a
    printer that you'd likely be best to throw out when requires new ink
    cartridges?

    3. Unix, Linux FreeBSD [*nix] software is largely X platform and often multi
    user capable. Try running many windows applications over a network = single
    user just PAY for another copy...

    4. Home users [esp. of Vista] are increasingly going over to the cleaner
    Linux and a few to FreeBSD.
    Over the top Vista. To an initially confusing array of Linux distributions -
    A few are excellent else to FreeBSD with say KDE. A bit more common sense
    needed to install it - but you're in danger of learning something.

    While I still write a bit of code for fun. I contribute nothing to the
    FreeBSD effort. Geek - Only to Windows USERS who are amazed if someone can
    manage to copy a file from the DOS [CMD] prompt.

    Last:
    Under *nix you have a whole range of 'desktops' to select from.

    Depends whether the HOME USER is interested in learning or just playing
    around with wizards to get QUICK results.
    e.g. The first web site I 'fixed' for someone else was written in Fontpage,
    did not work because the user had referenced stuff on drive C: etc.

    Took me one evening to re-write the site in a simple text editor, upload and
    test the site and check W3C standards.
    - My humble code was ONE SEVENTH the size of the original!
    - The code I wrote COULD easily be written by any semi-competent 10 year old
    child using WINDOWS NOTEDPAD

    - Why Change from WINDOWS at all if be god's own?

    - Try a MAC if you like competent simplicity.

    - Unix preceded DOS, Windows, Linux etc by some decades.

    For me FreeBSD is a relief from the daily drudge of re-loading virally
    infected, fragmented, slow running Windows systems for HOME users.

    Hey I just tried Dreamscene on Vista Ultimate extras [Really].
    Nothing like an MPEG video running as a desktop background.
    Rooly power user stuff that: 30-50% CPU useage [wow] [Quad core anyone?]
    I found too many 'desktop movies', tried one titled "Liquid Dreams". Says
    much about the whole concept.



    --

    Bill
    AMD64 - FreeBSD 6.2
    'The road less travelled'

  16. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    In article <4sSFi.198493$p7.71876@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
    pasta wrote:
    >Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> pasta wrote:
    >>> I understand that it has many problems:
    >>> 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    >>> software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    >>> the system.

    >>
    >> The upgrades to FreeBSD are far easier than any other OS I've ever
    >> used with the exception of Irix on $$ high priced SGI servers
    >> and workstation.
    >>
    >>> 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.

    >>
    >> There are hundreds of printers listed in the utilities.
    >>
    >>> 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is
    >>> 'ported' from other operating systems.

    >>
    >> Hm. That's strange. I have clients with commercial backup
    >> software designed expressly for FreeBSD.
    >>
    >>> 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who
    >>> contribute to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem
    >>> to be the ultimate automated system to massage the egos of geeky
    >>> coders.

    >>
    >> It's the most reliable operating system I've used. I had one
    >> mail server up and running for over 700 days - and the only patches
    >> required were minor applications that did NOT need a reboot.
    >>
    >>> Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    >>
    >> I guess it depends upon the level of the HOME users expertise.
    >> If you want a FreeBSD based OS system that has a nice desktop
    >> use Apples OS/X. It's a fancy windowing system based upon
    >> FreeBSD code.
    >>
    >> If you don't like it try some other OS - there are plenty.
    >>
    >> You have OVER 350 distributions of Linux to try until you find the
    >> one you like.
    >>
    >> Bill
    >> Bill

    >I have tried linux already and am thinking about trying FreeBSD which is
    >why I have been reading here and why I have asked this question. I think
    >I will try FreeBSD, but if I do need help I will try to ask elsewhere as
    >people who post here seem to be very full of themselves (apart from your
    >reply which was civil)
    >Thank you


    You just tweeked the hot buttons on a few.

    The problem I have with Linux is that it changes often and
    sometimes arbitrarily. It also tends to deprecated certain
    functions instead of retaing backward compatibility and then
    nagging you when you use the wrong syntax.

    And so many of the Linux vendors try to differentiate themselves
    from the competition that often things are in very different places
    depending upon the distribution.

    I've also found the FreeBSD installs have been more stable
    than the Linux versions I've worked with - at some clients who got
    into Linux because it was the 'hot' free OS at the time.

    FreeBSD is quite customizable and you can build very small systems
    - in case you just need to build a firewall or something that is
    going to be a one purpose box. It's not hard to make a running
    system with only a 500MB drive and still have space to operate in.

    What I like mostly about FreeBSD is it's consistancy. I've been
    running Unix and Unix-like systems since 1983 and was running
    one of the three major news servers in this are in the mid-1980s.

    And so much of all the system remain quite similar. There is
    a 'man hierarchy' in FreeBSD which designates where things should
    go - but you don't have to follow that.

    The Linux distros often like to use and entire drive with only one
    file system. I've seen enough crashed - and they mostly occure on
    the / partition as it gets written all the time - that having
    the OS on / and all you apps on another partition make recovery
    much easier. You could also reinstall the OS on / without
    bothering anything you had before.

    I look at things differently and definately not from a desktop
    point-of-view - as I've been self-support self-employed
    working in Unix for 20+ years. I'm sort of a system-admin for hire
    for small businesses that don't need anyone full time.

    As to your comment about going elsewhere to find information - this
    group is going to be one of the best places. The other it to
    get on the mailing lists from FreeBSD.org as there are about 50 or
    so - all dealing with specific subjects. I start with joining the
    'questions' list.

    Your original post looked more like a typical troll posting so
    that's why you got some of the answers you did. This group
    is one of the best technical oriented groups with the least amount
    of 'advocacy' and cheer-leading with minmal content than any group
    I've used and I've been on Usenet since 1984 - back in the days of
    UUCP and 1200 BSP modems before the superfast Telebit Trailblazer
    broke upon the seen.

    One thing to remember about usenet is that you have to be sure
    not to read more into a post than is actually there - and your
    frame of mind can contribute to your impressions - and another is
    to just ignore those that may disagree with you.

    As to my 'civil' reply - it's just that I've learned to try not
    to use words that could be interpreted in different ways depending
    upon the mood of the reviwer. And on top of that I moved to email
    for most of my communications back in 1979 over 'speedy' 300bps
    modems. Googling for my name will probably bring up 100's of
    entries if not thousands on all sorts of topics.

    Give FreeBSD a good try, and do come back, and also subscribe
    to at least the questions newsletter.

    Bill

    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

  17. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    In article <87fy1jvrkl.fsf@kobe.laptop>,
    Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    >On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:11:12 GMT, pasta wrote:
    >>Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >>> snip...

    >>
    >> I have tried linux already and am thinking about trying FreeBSD which
    >> is why I have been reading here and why I have asked this question. I
    >> think I will try FreeBSD, but if I do need help I will try to ask
    >> elsewhere as people who post here seem to be very full of themselves
    >> (apart from your reply which was civil)

    >
    >You posted a question which sounded like you already assume that FreeBSD
    >is worthless of even trying. This is probably the reason why some of
    >the answers you received were angry.
    >
    >If you *do* try to use FreeBSD, you spend some time learning how it
    >works, and you come back with specific questions about things that you
    >want to learn more about, I'm sure that you will get far more useful
    >answers.
    >
    >- Giorgos


    You need to check your attributions. The above looks like
    I said that while the OP did.

    I moved to FreeBSD at an ISP from very expensive SGI servers and
    workstations and got twice the performance [a guess] with
    less horsepower - 200Mhz Pentiums instead of 400MHz RISC chips -
    and at about 1/4 the cost. I haven't found anthing that comes
    close. And one of my web servers I maintain always comes
    up #1 with just one keyword on all three of the top search engines.
    It's been that way for about 5 years.

    In case you are interested it's http://www.springbreak.com

    It gets really busy right after the first of the year.

    Bill


    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

  18. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:52:39 GMT in Bill Vermillion wrote:

    Preface... I'm one of those weirdos that regularly uses
    Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and AIX and my mantra is
    "They all suck differently."

    > The problem I have with Linux is that it changes often and
    > sometimes arbitrarily. It also tends to deprecated certain
    > functions instead of retaing backward compatibility and then
    > nagging you when you use the wrong syntax.


    You might want to differentiate between Linux the kernel
    and all the software one needs to make the kernel useful.
    It's a trade off, Linux the kernel can sometimes embrace
    new technology or new techniques earlier (Lack of PAE on
    NetBSD being the current thorn in my side). The downside
    is it's harder to do full regression testing and keep everything
    in sync.
    >
    > And so many of the Linux vendors try to differentiate themselves
    > from the competition that often things are in very different places
    > depending upon the distribution.


    They tend to diverge about as much as the BSDs do for things like
    interface configuration, firewall configuration, daemon startup...
    It boils down to "Is this kind of diversity an impairment to how
    I work?"
    >
    > I've also found the FreeBSD installs have been more stable
    > than the Linux versions I've worked with - at some clients who got
    > into Linux because it was the 'hot' free OS at the time.


    When was the last time you encountered a client that was eager
    to go with Linux because it was free (as in beer)?
    I last encountered that mindset in 2001 for servers.
    I last encountered that mindset for a data migration with hard
    deadline in 2003, and "I can get it running faster than you can
    cut a purchase order" was the deciding factor.
    >
    > FreeBSD is quite customizable and you can build very small systems
    > - in case you just need to build a firewall or something that is
    > going to be a one purpose box. It's not hard to make a running
    > system with only a 500MB drive and still have space to operate in.


    How's the crossbuild facility these days if I wanted to target
    say an ARM system with significantly less storage?

    > The Linux distros often like to use and entire drive with only one
    > file system. I've seen enough crashed - and they mostly occure on
    > the / partition as it gets written all the time - that having
    > the OS on / and all you apps on another partition make recovery
    > much easier. You could also reinstall the OS on / without
    > bothering anything you had before.


    It's not so much like to use as it's the default so it's quick and easy
    to do a demo for the PHBs.
    The commercial distros and major non-commercial distros have since
    tried to be more like AIX and HPUX and offer fairly easy paths to
    install with multiple filesystems on LVM, which leads to new
    opportunities for pain in a system recovery :-).
    >
    > I look at things differently and definately not from a desktop
    > point-of-view - as I've been self-support self-employed
    > working in Unix for 20+ years. I'm sort of a system-admin for hire
    > for small businesses that don't need anyone full time.


    Ah, another old fart... I'm almost at the 2 decade point with Unix.
    I have a tendency to work a while for big companies to cleanup
    the messes created by "architects" that haven't done day to day
    sysadmin work or programming and "sysadmins" that demonstrate the
    apathy that seems to make HR happy.



    --
    Chris Dukes
    < elfick> willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
    to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat

  19. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:00:19 GMT in pasta wrote:

    You do realize that you look like a troll for atleast the following reasons.
    1) You chose quite the antagonistic subject line.
    2) You're pretending to be coming from a domain that is likely to have
    no knowledge you exist.
    3) Instead of indicating how the mainstream is failing to meet your needs
    you badmouth that which you claim to be interested in.

    Try indicating what you're trying to do (Because HOME Desktop could mean
    anything from running playing solitaire, to trying to run for office,
    to trying to develop the replacement for the INTARWEB).


    > I understand that it has many problems:
    > 1. the windows system cannot be used for much of the new windows
    > software and a complicated unreliable method must be used to 'upgrade'
    > the system.


    The outside party that created the windowing system used by the system
    has implemented a planned change in how the window system is built,
    packaged, and distributed.
    That change has created issues for all Unixlike operating systems that
    use the windowing system. Many of the other Unixlike operating systems
    resolved the issue by requiring users "fdisk, format, and reinstall"
    instead of providing an in place upgrade path.

    > 2. From reading this group, it only works with a limited number of printers.


    You might want to elucidate on "limited number of printers."
    If you goal is to get something that works with the cheapest
    printer you can find in the store, odds are it's only supported on Microsoft
    Windows at this point in time.
    If you're willing to read the documentation on the printing subsystem
    and read the list of hardware supported by the back ends, you'll find that
    most of the printers in a store are supported.

    > 3. No one actually makes software for FreeBSD. All software is 'ported'
    > from other operating systems.


    You may wish to reduce the size of the universe of your assertion.
    FreeBSD takes from the Unix heritage where, either by usefulness or
    a better bid from a different vendor, the platform that is best to
    run a piece of software may not have been the platform it was developed on.
    Usually it doesn't matter unless a software project is consistantly
    developed by developers that insist on writing non-portable code.

    > 4. The only real users of FreeBSD are the (gifted) geeks who contribute
    > to the code which is FreeBSD. This system would seem to be the ultimate
    > automated system to massage the egos of geeky coders.


    When FreeBSD has been my primary choice for a project, it has been because
    it provided the tools I needed in a timely fashion out of the box.
    At current moment NetBSD is slightly further ahead with what I currently need.
    That is likely to change at a future date.
    >
    > Why would any HOME user want to use it as an alternative desktop?

    Alternative meaning alternative to the desktop they use most of the time
    or alternative to what most people are running?

    A HOME user may end up using it as their primary desktop because
    1) It provides the functionality and stability they need.
    2) It provides the functionality and stability needed by the poor
    family member or friend that provides support for them.

    If you need someone else to convince you to run something, choose something
    where there are plenty of skillful advertisers telling you to run it.

    If you need to run something different because those things that are
    mainstream aren't meeting your needs you might want to indicate
    what you are trying to do, what you've tried, and why you didn't
    like those things. If you can't do that, you're doomed to forever be
    unhappy.


    --
    Chris Dukes
    < elfick> willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
    to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat

  20. Re: Is FreeBSD a Novelty Operating System?

    On 12 Sep 2007 20:41:57 GMT, ? wrote:
    > On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:52:39 GMT in Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >> FreeBSD is quite customizable and you can build very small systems
    >> - in case you just need to build a firewall or something that is
    >> going to be a one purpose box. It's not hard to make a running
    >> system with only a 500MB drive and still have space to operate in.

    >
    > How's the crossbuild facility these days if I wanted to target
    > say an ARM system with significantly less storage?


    Pretty good. There is support in the source tree itself for
    cross-building many architectures. You can even use a "make universe"
    target, which cross-builds several architectures in one go.

    The freebsd-arm and freebsd-embedded mailing lists are probably the best
    places around to ask about the more technical details

    - Giorgos


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