Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore? - BSD

This is a discussion on Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore? - BSD ; Hello, I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them... I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. ...

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Thread: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

  1. Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    Hello,

    I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...

    I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again,
    they refuse my mail connection:

    PC% sudo mailq
    /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)


    I'm not an expert on sendmail or anything else; it simply looks to
    me as though they're refusing to accept sendmail's attempt to
    connect and pass my message on to (apparently *anyone* at)
    freebsd.org. But I've been wrong before.

    I'll repeat my query here:

    [...]
    > If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to
    > mailman-owner@freebsd.org. Thanks!


    Yes, I have!

    I have tried several times -- half dozen or so -- to post a query
    to the freebsd-mobile list only to have your site refuse to accept
    e-mail from my system.

    This machine is on a private LAN (192.168.0.0) and, as is customary
    with Unix and Unix-like machine, has a host name (quail). Sendmail
    is configured to masquerade as sorsby.org but, of course,
    quail.sorsby.org does show up in Received: lines as does "localhost."

    That is the only thing that I can think of that may be triggering
    your site's rejection.

    I'm not going to elaborate now; for all I know, your site will also
    refuse this reply.

    If a human actually reads this, I should appreciate a reply from an
    e-mail address to which I can respond. Then I shall try once again
    to post to freebsd-mobile and forward the bounced messages to you.

    If anyone cares.

    END ATTEMPTED MESSAGE.

    And it did "refuse this reply."

    And, yes, I am frustrated.

    My freebsd-mobile subscription is for the name crs@sorsby.org,
    a registered domain with a static IP address. As implied above,
    I've sent test messages to other accounts so that I can see what
    headers are being sent out and, yes, among the received lines are
    those for localhost and for quail.sorsby.org.

    That's the only thing I can think of to cause rejection of
    sendmail's connection. Surely I'm not the only one who uses a
    purely *local* hostname that appears among the Received: lines.
    Naturally, quail.sorsby.org won't resolve; it doesn't exist outside
    may local LAN.

    Of course there is a very real possibility that there's some other
    reason for the problem.

    So if anyone from freebsd.org reads this or if anyone else has
    suggestions, please let me know.

    Thanks for any help.
    --
    Charlie Sorsby
    crs@swcp.com
    Edgewood, NM 87015
    USA

  2. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:08:11 UTC, crs@sorsby.org (Charlie Sorsby) wrote:

    > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...
    >
    > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again,
    > they refuse my mail connection:
    >
    > PC% sudo mailq
    > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    >


    The classic reason is that the HELO command (the first command sent by
    the client in an SMTP conversation) is badly formatted. It should be of
    the form:

    HELO hostat.my.domain

    where the second part is the hostname of the client (as a fully
    qualified name). Many MTAs (mine included) will reject a name like
    'localhost', and some will also reject one that can't be looked up in
    DNS.

    I would look at your configuration, and clues as to the actual 'HELO'
    sent by your system (look in the headers of messages received from you
    on other systems). Can't help with sendmail as I don't use it.
    --
    Bob Eager
    begin 123 a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!

  3. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    Charlie Sorsby wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...
    >
    > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again,
    > they refuse my mail connection:
    >
    > PC% sudo mailq
    > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    >
    >
    > I'm not an expert on sendmail or anything else; it simply looks to
    > me as though they're refusing to accept sendmail's attempt to
    > connect and pass my message on to (apparently *anyone* at)
    > freebsd.org. But I've been wrong before.
    >

    .... ...

    Can you post your `sendmail.mc' just to have a start ...

    Henri

  4. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:08:11 +0000 (UTC), crs@sorsby.org (Charlie Sorsby) wrote:
    > Hello,
    > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...


    Hello Charlie,
    to answer the question of the subject:

    "Yes, people from FreeBSD.org hang out here too." :-)

    > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again, they
    > refuse my mail connection:
    >
    > PC% sudo mailq
    > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    >
    >
    > I'm not an expert on sendmail or anything else; it simply looks to
    > me as though they're refusing to accept sendmail's attempt to
    > connect and pass my message on to (apparently *anyone* at)
    > freebsd.org. But I've been wrong before.


    We don't refuse email from anyone. We refuse email from hosts whose
    name and/or address are unresolvable. Posting from hosts with names or
    addresses which do not properly resolve is a very common spammer trick;
    so common in fact that many mail servers (including those of
    FreeBSD.org) have stopped accepting incoming email traffic from
    unresolvable names. Popular email-server software, like Sendmail and
    Postfix, have even grown special rules to handle this sort of antispam
    filtering.

    The solution to your problem is to stop posting *directly* to mail
    servers of FreeBSD.org from a host whose name and address are
    unresolvable from the point of view of the mail server at FreeBSD.org.

    - Giorgos


  5. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    > We don't refuse email from anyone. We refuse email from hosts whose
    > name and/or address are unresolvable. Posting from hosts with names or
    > addresses which do not properly resolve is a very common spammer trick;
    > so common in fact that many mail servers (including those of
    > FreeBSD.org) have stopped accepting incoming email traffic from
    > unresolvable names. Popular email-server software, like Sendmail and
    > Postfix, have even grown special rules to handle this sort of antispam
    > filtering.
    >
    > The solution to your problem is to stop posting *directly* to mail
    > servers of FreeBSD.org from a host whose name and address are
    > unresolvable from the point of view of the mail server at FreeBSD.org.


    This is also an RFC violation. It is NOT permitted to block mail
    delivery based on HELO. This may be used for logging purposes only.
    Beyond the SMTP delivery phase, e.g. in a spam filter, you can do what
    you like with the HELO, but it definitely should not stop mail delivery
    under any circumstances.

    RL

  6. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 20:43:14 UTC, RL wrote:

    > Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    > > We don't refuse email from anyone. We refuse email from hosts whose
    > > name and/or address are unresolvable. Posting from hosts with names or
    > > addresses which do not properly resolve is a very common spammer trick;
    > > so common in fact that many mail servers (including those of
    > > FreeBSD.org) have stopped accepting incoming email traffic from
    > > unresolvable names. Popular email-server software, like Sendmail and
    > > Postfix, have even grown special rules to handle this sort of antispam
    > > filtering.
    > >
    > > The solution to your problem is to stop posting *directly* to mail
    > > servers of FreeBSD.org from a host whose name and address are
    > > unresolvable from the point of view of the mail server at FreeBSD.org.

    >
    > This is also an RFC violation. It is NOT permitted to block mail
    > delivery based on HELO. This may be used for logging purposes only.
    > Beyond the SMTP delivery phase, e.g. in a spam filter, you can do what
    > you like with the HELO, but it definitely should not stop mail delivery
    > under any circumstances.


    Well, not quite. My reading of the RFC implies that the only EHLO/HELO
    error that should fail 'soft' (i.e. cannot result in refusal) is a
    failure to match IP address with the FQDN given in the EHLO/HELO. It is
    legal to refuse EHLO/HELO if the parameter is not a FQDN (i.e. does not
    contain at least one period) or an address literal, and also if the
    parameter does not have an A record in DNS (unless it's an address
    literal, of course). In other words, it must exist, but the IP address
    need not match.

    References: RFC 2821 section 3.6 bullet 1. The RFC-defined laxity re IP
    address matches is specific to that case, and is in 4.1.4 para 6.

    You can stop of lot of crud coming through if you refuse non_FQDNs
    alone. Sadly, people do go further because of the sheer volume of spam.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin 123 a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!

  7. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    Charlie Sorsby wrote:
    >
    > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...
    >
    > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again,
    > they refuse my mail connection:
    >
    > PC% sudo mailq
    > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    >
    >
    > I'm not an expert on sendmail or anything else; it simply looks to
    > me as though they're refusing to accept sendmail's attempt to
    > connect and pass my message on to (apparently *anyone* at)
    > freebsd.org. But I've been wrong before.


    I want to point out that this message does not show your mail being
    rejected.

    Deferred means just that, a temporary error. Your sendmail will try to
    send it again. A real reject would have a 550 error.

    The error message is cropped, so if you could post the section of your
    /var/log/maillog that has the full error message, it would help.

    --
    Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA

  8. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    In article , Charlie Sorsby wrote:

    >I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...


    >I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    >about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    >reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again,
    >they refuse my mail connection:


    >PC% sudo mailq
    > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    >-----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    >l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    >


    From the sendmail.cf you see this is the 450 error.

    R $#TEMP $@ 4.4.0 $: "450 Relaying temporarily denied. Cannot resolve PTR record for " $&{client_addr}

    Perhaps you are on an ISP that does not perform reverse lookups.
    They seem to be growing in number.

    Is there any other mail server you can use? How about using
    your ISP as the smart-host?

    Bill
    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

  9. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:13:18 UTC, bv@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) wrote:

    > In article , Charlie Sorsby wrote:
    >
    > >I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...

    >
    > >I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    > >about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    > >reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again,
    > >they refuse my mail connection:

    >
    > >PC% sudo mailq
    > > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    > >-----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    > >l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    > >

    >
    > From the sendmail.cf you see this is the 450 error.
    >
    > R $#TEMP $@ 4.4.0 $: "450 Relaying temporarily denied. Cannot resolve PTR record for " $&{client_addr}
    >
    > Perhaps you are on an ISP that does not perform reverse lookups.


    You're implying that 450 always means that, aren't you? But it means
    'mailbox not available', in the more general sense. The text gives more
    information, and you seem to be saying that because 450 appears in
    sendmail.cf with the message you quote, that must be the reason at the
    far end. There is no guarantee that it's even running sendmail!

    More to the point, the message the OP is getting is quite clear; the
    HELO command is unacceptable. Now, that could also be because a reverse
    lookup failed, or because it's not resolvable in a forward direction. In
    fact, I can't find an A record for quail.sorsby.org in DNS, so that may
    be the problem.

    So, yes, it *might* be a reverse lookup error. But it might not. The 450
    can't be interpreted in the context of your sendmail.cf...!
    --
    Bob Eager
    UNIX since v6..
    http://tinyurl.com/2xqr6h


  10. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 22:18:41 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    : On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:08:11 +0000 (UTC), crs@sorsby.org (Charlie Sorsby) wrote:
    : > Hello,
    : > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...
    :
    : Hello Charlie,
    : to answer the question of the subject:
    :
    : "Yes, people from FreeBSD.org hang out here too." :-)
    :
    : > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    : > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    : > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again, they
    : > refuse my mail connection:
    : >
    : > PC% sudo mailq
    : > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    : > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    : > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    : > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command rejecte)
    : >
    : >
    : > I'm not an expert on sendmail or anything else; it simply looks to
    : > me as though they're refusing to accept sendmail's attempt to
    : > connect and pass my message on to (apparently *anyone* at)
    : > freebsd.org. But I've been wrong before.
    :
    : We don't refuse email from anyone. We refuse email from hosts whose
    : name and/or address are unresolvable. Posting from hosts with names or
    : addresses which do not properly resolve is a very common spammer trick;


    Which includes the HELO sender 'quail.sorsby.org' that is NXDOMAIN at
    about 0200 on Sep. 3rd.



  11. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    In article <87fy1yp52m.fsf@kobe.laptop>,
    Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    = On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:08:11 +0000 (UTC), crs@sorsby.org (Charlie Sorsby) wrote:
    = > Hello,
    = > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...
    =
    = Hello Charlie,
    = to answer the question of the subject:
    =
    = "Yes, people from FreeBSD.org hang out here too." :-)
    =
    = > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    = > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    = > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again, they
    = > refuse my mail connection:
    = >
    = > PC% sudo mailq
    = > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    = > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time-----
    = ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    = > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    = > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command
    = rejecte)
    = >
    = >
    = > I'm not an expert on sendmail or anything else; it simply looks to
    = > me as though they're refusing to accept sendmail's attempt to
    = > connect and pass my message on to (apparently *anyone* at)
    = > freebsd.org. But I've been wrong before.
    =
    = We don't refuse email from anyone. We refuse email from hosts whose
    = name and/or address are unresolvable. Posting from hosts with names or
    = addresses which do not properly resolve is a very common spammer trick;
    = so common in fact that many mail servers (including those of
    = FreeBSD.org) have stopped accepting incoming email traffic from
    = unresolvable names. Popular email-server software, like Sendmail and
    = Postfix, have even grown special rules to handle this sort of antispam
    = filtering.

    OK, that makes sense. Thank you.

    I guess that means that anyone with a static IP and one registered
    domain with a private LAN behind that domain is excluded because
    the individual host names will not be registered. Unless, of
    course, they us the "smart host" feature which was suggested in a
    different post.

    Actually I had done just that but the default sendmail
    configuration after some update or another changed that. Not being
    a sendmail expert (but wanting to learn more about it), I chose not
    to make sweeping changes to the configuration produced by
    installing the newER version of freeBSD. That must be when my
    ability to post to freebsd-mobile went away although I didn't
    notice at the time.

    = The solution to your problem is to stop posting *directly* to mail
    = servers of FreeBSD.org from a host whose name and address are
    = unresolvable from the point of view of the mail server at FreeBSD.org.

    Interestingly, I've had no problem e-mailing to any of my family,
    friends, acquaintances, nor to those on-line businesses that
    actually accept incoming e-mail. Only to freeBSD.org.

    Oh well...

    = - Giorgos
    =


    --
    Charlie Sorsby
    crs@swcp.com
    Edgewood, NM 87015
    USA

  12. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    Charlie Sorsby wrote:
    >
    > I guess that means that anyone with a static IP and one registered
    > domain with a private LAN behind that domain is excluded because
    > the individual host names will not be registered. Unless, of
    > course, they us the "smart host" feature which was suggested in a
    > different post.


    Yes. Have your LAN smarthost through the internet gateway machine,
    which in turn may have to smarthost through your ISP.

    > Actually I had done just that but the default sendmail
    > configuration after some update or another changed that. Not being
    > a sendmail expert (but wanting to learn more about it), I chose not
    > to make sweeping changes to the configuration produced by
    > installing the newER version of freeBSD. That must be when my
    > ability to post to freebsd-mobile went away although I didn't
    > notice at the time.


    Mark your changes to hostname.mc with comments. After a sendmail
    update, which really is not all that often:

    Move the working .mc file to a backup.
    cd /etc/mail && make (to create a new .mc file)
    Edit the new hostname.mc, bringing in the changes from your old file.

    mergemaster is there to assist with this after system rebuilds, but I
    find it easier to do .mc upgrades manually.

    > Interestingly, I've had no problem e-mailing to any of my family,
    > friends, acquaintances, nor to those on-line businesses that
    > actually accept incoming e-mail. Only to freeBSD.org.


    Email practices vary a lot. The FreeBSD systems have to be more
    aggressive than some because people are allowed to post to mailing
    lists without subscribing.

    --
    Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA

  13. Re: Does anybody from freebsd.org hang out here anymore?

    On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 09:59:49 -0600, crs@sorsby.org (Charlie Sorsby) wrote:
    > In article <87fy1yp52m.fsf@kobe.laptop>,
    > Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    > = On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:08:11 +0000 (UTC), crs@sorsby.org (Charlie Sorsby) wrote:
    > = > Hello,
    > = > I'm subscribed to freebsd-mobile but can't mail to them...
    > =
    > = Hello Charlie,
    > = to answer the question of the subject:
    > =
    > = "Yes, people from FreeBSD.org hang out here too." :-)
    > =
    > = > I received the monthly reminder of my password, etc. and the statement
    > = > about mailing to mailman-owner@freebsd.org with any questions which
    > = > reminded me to try, yet again, to reach somebody there. Again, they
    > = > refuse my mail connection:
    > = >
    > = > PC% sudo mailq
    > = > /var/spool/mqueue (2 requests)
    > = > -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time-----
    > = ------------Sender/Recipient-----------
    > = > l81FtINK047780 2180 Sat Sep 1 09:55
    > = > (Deferred: 450 4.7.1 : Helo command
    > = rejecte)
    > = >
    > =
    > = We don't refuse email from anyone. We refuse email from hosts whose
    > = name and/or address are unresolvable.
    >
    > OK, that makes sense. Thank you.
    >
    > I guess that means that anyone with a static IP and one registered
    > domain with a private LAN behind that domain is excluded because
    > the individual host names will not be registered. Unless, of
    > course, they us the "smart host" feature which was suggested in a
    > different post.


    A static IP address is useful, but it is not _sufficient_ to post email
    to the wide world. A very simple proof that a static IP address is
    quite insufficient as a means of validating email are the millions of
    spam messages forwarded by DSL users who have a static IP but are either
    running misconfigured mail servers, or Windows "bots" in a botnet.

    So having a static IP address says *something* about the source of an
    email message, but the address is not something a mail hub like the one
    at FreeBSD.org can implicitly "trust" because "it is static".

    This is where DNS checks come into play. If you are posting from the
    address 62.1.222.136 (my current DSL link address, as you should be able
    to see in the headers of this post later), and the email claims to be
    coming from then an easy check to see if the
    email is forged is to verify that `whitehouse.gov' (or the mail server
    of the `whitehouse.gov' domain) resolves to this IP address.

    The funny thing is that it doesn't. Neither the name `whitehouse.gov'
    resolves to 62.1.222.136, nor 62.1.222.136 to `whitehouse.gov'.

    So, if I try to post to FreeBSD.org claiming to be the authoritative
    source of emails from a person called called
    my email is rejected.

    There *is* a well-known solution to this, however. You can post through
    the mail relay of your ISP. This introduces an extra step to all the
    outgoing email messages, but it goes through a mail server which:

    * Can verify that you are a valid subscriber to the particular ISP.

    * Can use the permanently configured, publicly known, official name
    *and* IP address of the ISP's mail server to post.

    Bingo. Problem solved :-)

    > Actually I had done just that but the default sendmail configuration
    > after some update or another changed that. Not being a sendmail
    > expert (but wanting to learn more about it), I chose not to make
    > sweeping changes to the configuration produced by installing the newER
    > version of freeBSD. That must be when my ability to post to
    > freebsd-mobile went away although I didn't notice at the time.


    That sounds very plausible

    > = The solution to your problem is to stop posting *directly* to mail
    > = servers of FreeBSD.org from a host whose name and address are
    > = unresolvable from the point of view of the mail server at FreeBSD.org.
    >
    > Interestingly, I've had no problem e-mailing to any of my family,
    > friends, acquaintances, nor to those on-line businesses that
    > actually accept incoming e-mail. Only to freeBSD.org.


    That's ok.

    The main FreeBSD.org mail servers are run by experienced fellows, who
    are *very* strict about spam. The fact that hardly any spam message
    hits our mailboxes, even for those of us who are subscribed to dozens of
    mailing lists, is a testament to the effectiveness of this strictness


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