Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based? - BSD

This is a discussion on Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based? - BSD ; On 21 Jul 2007 07:45:08 GMT Lars Eighner wrote: > Well, it doesn't. It breaks just about everything. Plus it wastes all > the extra bytes that were handled perfectly well by iso-8859-1. It's like > trying read zip file ...

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Thread: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

  1. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 21 Jul 2007 07:45:08 GMT
    Lars Eighner wrote:

    > Well, it doesn't. It breaks just about everything. Plus it wastes all
    > the extra bytes that were handled perfectly well by iso-8859-1. It's like
    > trying read zip file verbatim.


    The trouble with iso8859-* is that it is a set of 8 bit codes so
    the meaning of (for example) 0x93 depends on which iso8859-* you are using
    (and no iso8859-1 is not good enough for everything for a start it lacks
    the €). The joy of Unicode is that all scripts are in one 31 bit code set.

    I don't get this wasted bytes comment though.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  2. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    In our last episode, <20070721163353.cf322452.steveo@eircom.net>, the lovely
    and talented Steve O'Hara-Smith broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:

    > On 21 Jul 2007 07:45:08 GMT
    > Lars Eighner wrote:


    >> Well, it doesn't. It breaks just about everything. Plus it wastes all
    >> the extra bytes that were handled perfectly well by iso-8859-1. It's like
    >> trying read zip file verbatim.


    > The trouble with iso8859-* is that it is a set of 8 bit codes so
    > the meaning of (for example) 0x93 depends on which iso8859-* you are using
    > (and no iso8859-1 is not good enough for everything for a start it lacks
    > the ?). The joy of Unicode is that all scripts are in one 31 bit code set.


    If I need iso8859-15, I could edit the nearest VGA font I had to it. Stick
    the name of that font in rc.conf and be off to the races. The FreeBSD
    keyboard is absurdly easy to edit (which is one of the reasons I use
    FreeBSD instead of other BSD flavors or any of the Linux varieties I have
    tried. It's simple, and frankly why should I cave into the bloat and
    slowness of applications which have to consider the possibility that I want
    Sanskrit every time I fire them up? It has been a long, long time since I
    had a port fail to compile for any reason except it could not work its way
    through the Locale forest.

    > I don't get this wasted bytes comment though.


    é is one byte in the console. How many is it in your UTF8 terminal?

    --
    Lars Eighner
    Countdown: 548 days to go.
    Owing to massive spam from googlegroups, I do not see most posts from there.

  3. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    In our last episode, <86ejj1g8g6.fsf@eder.homelinux.net>, the lovely and
    talented Andreas Eder broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:

    > Hi Lars,


    >>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Eighner writes:


    I really should leave the original unwrapped gnus quoting to illustrate my
    point, but I guess I'll just put the cursor on the block and hit F8. Oh
    wait, that won't work because gnus doesn't quote properly.

    > Lars> The point of text mode is to 1) avoid GUI fonts not one of which is as
    > Lars> legible as VGA fonts for similar amounts of information, 2) avoid pointing
    > Lars> devices which are hiddeous beyound description, 3) be able to work without
    > Lars> taking hands off the keyboard --- and 'keyboard shortcuts' are a complete
    > Lars> fraud, never fully implemented. A terminal window in a GUI is not text
    > Lars> mode. Haveing a few terminal windows open in a GUI is not the samething as
    > Lars> having a few (virtual) terminals open.


    > Try to use uxterm (UTF-8 enables xterm) with larswm as a window
    > manager. There is not really any reason to use a mouse then - you
    > can do pretty much everything you want without a mouse even though
    > you are running in X. There are even a few good fonts to use.


    And that deals with the ridiculous X bloat making it better than Windoz
    how?

    > In my opinion a good window manager makes all the difference, and
    > nowadays emacs also behaves quite well with unicode. So what else
    > do you need? :-)


    Life is too short to learn lisp.

    The problem with ?emacs is that it is not customizable. Try mapping Ctrl-X
    to its logical function of cut and Ctrl-C to its logical function of copy.
    Try to get backspace to do backspace instead of help AND have delete really
    do delete, and not something like bizarro backspace. In theory you are
    supposed to be able to do that, but you will be working until parentheses
    are coming out of your ass, and you still won't be able to do it because
    most people who write modes assume the mappings for Ctrl-X and Ctrl-C are
    hardwired.

    The guy who did emacs had no grasp of ergonomics and just want to illustrate
    lisp. About the only good thing that can be said for ?emacs is that it
    isn't vi.

    --
    Lars Eighner
    Countdown: 548 days to go.
    Owing to massive spam from googlegroups, I do not see most posts from there.

  4. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    Bob Eager wrote:
    +---------------
    | wrote:
    | > Many people start FreeBSD in text console mode, and then
    | > run "startx" after logging in. These people are weird. :-)
    |
    | After 31 years of UNIX, it feels more comfortable!
    +---------------

    Ditto, though I just have my ~/.login do an "exec xinit",
    and the last line in my ~/.xinitrc runs "twm", so all I
    have to do to log out is exit the window manager using
    a convenient root menu line in the ~/.twmrc file:

    Button2 = : root : f.menu "twmops"
    ...
    menu "twmops"
    {
    "TwmOps" f.title
    "Logout" f.quit
    "Refresh" f.refresh
    "Restart" f.restart
    ...
    }


    -Rob

    -----
    Rob Warnock
    627 26th Avenue
    San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607


  5. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:05:02 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:

    > On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:26:26 +1000
    > Andrew Reilly wrote:
    >
    >> I'm curious: under what circumstances is running more than one X server on
    >> the same box a win?

    >
    > Running GUI sessions for multiple users,


    Using multiple display cards, or multi-head cards and USB keyboards?
    That's a neat idea, but not hugely scalable, I imagine. Tricky to
    maintain associations between keyboards, mice and display devices?

    > also good for playing with
    > new window manglers.


    OK. I've stopped doing that. Part of the GNOME-induced life
    simplification exercise :-)

    Cheers,

    --
    Andrew


  6. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 21 Jul 2007 19:20:39 GMT, Lars Eighner wrote:
    >Andreas Eder broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:
    >> In my opinion a good window manager makes all the difference, and
    >> nowadays emacs also behaves quite well with unicode. So what else
    >> do you need? :-)

    >
    > Life is too short to learn lisp.


    How did _this_ thread turn into a piss contest for Emacs 'bugs'?

    > The problem with ?emacs is that it is not customizable. Try mapping
    > Ctrl-X to its logical function of cut and Ctrl-C to its logical
    > function of copy.


    We have that in GNU Emacs too now, and it's called "cua-mode".

    > Try to get backspace to do backspace instead of help AND have delete
    > really do delete, and not something like bizarro backspace.


    I'm running GNU Emacs 22.X in xterm windows and as an X11 window of its
    own. Backspace works as, uhm, backspace. Delete deletes forward or
    backward, or whichever way I prefer to configure to delete.

    What you describe may have been a problem with a particular terminal
    session, running GNU Emacs in 'no window' mode, a few years back. It's
    not a problem anymore.

    > In theory you are supposed to be able to do that, but you will be
    > working until parentheses are coming out of your ass, and you still
    > won't be able to do it because most people who write modes assume the
    > mappings for Ctrl-X and Ctrl-C are hardwired.


    Please have a look at "cua-mode", really...

    This is a thread about using FreeBSD in text-mode or GUI-mode however,
    so we don't have to go down the path of discussing which features of
    Emacs work for you, or which do not.

    With a UTF-8 enabled terminal, running under X11, you can use whatever
    editor you prefer, i.e. /usr/bin/vi :-)


  7. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 21 Jul 2007 19:02:16 GMT, Lars Eighner wrote:
    >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
    >>Lars Eighner wrote:
    >>> Well, it doesn't. It breaks just about everything. Plus it
    >>> wastes all the extra bytes that were handled perfectly well
    >>> by iso-8859-1. It's like trying read zip file verbatim.

    >>
    >> The trouble with iso8859-* is that it is a set of 8 bit codes
    >> so the meaning of (for example) 0x93 depends on which
    >> iso8859-* you are using (and no iso8859-1 is not good enough
    >> for everything for a start it lacks the ?). The joy of Unicode
    >> is that all scripts are in one 31 bit code set.

    >
    > If I need iso8859-15, I could edit the nearest VGA font I had
    > to it.


    The main problem with ISO 8859-X is, however, that given a raw
    byte stream of 'text', you don't really know _which_ 'X' to use
    to make sense out of it.

    >> I don't get this wasted bytes comment though.

    >
    > é is one byte in the console. How many is it in your UTF8 terminal?


    Greek text, which I daily have to use is non-present in your
    favorite ISO 8859-1 font. I can hear you typing "oh fer
    chrissake, use an ISO 8859-7 font then", but to this I can only
    reply:

    There are at least 4 *different* one-byte based 'encodings' of
    Greek text which have, in various periods, been in use in
    Greece. None of them are fully compatible with ISO 8859-1, or
    with each other for that matter.

    The fact that you do not seem to have any particularly pressing
    need for UTF-8 does not instantly make it useless, so please
    accept the fact that _some_ people may have a real, important
    _need_ for it.

    Regards,
    Giorgos


  8. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    In our last episode, <87vecdm5t5.fsf@kobe.laptop>, the lovely and talented
    Giorgos Keramidas broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:


    > The fact that you do not seem to have any particularly pressing
    > need for UTF-8 does not instantly make it useless, so please
    > accept the fact that _some_ people may have a real, important
    > _need_ for it.


    But I don't. So why should I have gigabytes of Locale crap on my computer
    and have to run in a slow, bloated, illegible GUI? Why isn't their one
    switch in make.conf that will build world and applications without the junk?

    --
    Lars Eighner
    Countdown: 548 days to go.
    Owing to massive spam from googlegroups, I do not see most posts from there.

  9. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:11:03 UTC, Giorgos Keramidas
    wrote:

    > This is a thread about using FreeBSD in text-mode or GUI-mode however,
    > so we don't have to go down the path of discussing which features of
    > Emacs work for you, or which do not.


    Hear hear!

    > With a UTF-8 enabled terminal, running under X11, you can use whatever
    > editor you prefer, i.e. /usr/bin/vi :-)


    I still occasionally find a use for 'ed'!
    --
    Bob Eager
    begin 123 a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!

  10. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 22 Jul 2007 06:15:06 GMT, Lars Eighner wrote:
    >In our last episode, <87vecdm5t5.fsf@kobe.laptop>, the lovely and talented
    >Giorgos Keramidas broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:
    >> The fact that you do not seem to have any particularly pressing need
    >> for UTF-8 does not instantly make it useless, so please accept the
    >> fact that _some_ people may have a real, important _need_ for it.

    >
    > But I don't. So why should I have gigabytes of Locale crap on my
    > computer and have to run in a slow, bloated, illegible GUI? Why isn't
    > their one switch in make.conf that will build world and applications
    > without the junk?


    Hold on a bit there. The "locale" files are not really "gigabytes of
    crap" now, are they? On my FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT installation, the entire
    `/usr/share/locale' directory is a little more than 1.6 MB:

    $ du -sk /usr/share/locale
    1614 /usr/share/locale
    $

    If you are so hard pressed for disk space, I'm sure there are other
    parts to trim down and gain a _lot_ more disk space, aren't there?
    For instance, a typical installation of /usr/bin with debugging symbols,
    like the one I am running right now, needs almost two orders *more* disk
    space:

    $ du -sk /usr/bin
    90592 /usr/bin
    $

    Since you have it all wrong about the "gigabytes" of "locale crap",
    please make sure you come back with hard numbers about "gigabytes",
    "slow", "bloated", and "illegible", or this discussion has absolutely no
    usefulness at all, and I am not interested in whatever rants you have to
    share about what you _think_ is necessary.

    I'm out until then, and thanks for the Sunday fun,

    - Giorgos


  11. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 21 Jul 2007 19:02:16 GMT
    Lars Eighner wrote:

    > If I need iso8859-15, I could edit the nearest VGA font I had to it.
    > Stick the name of that font in rc.conf and be off to the races.


    Right and the day you need to have € (euro) and ¤ (generic
    currency symbol) at the same time you're screwed, how about a ₥ (Mill)
    symbol ? Go on type up a currency exchange table in text with the symbols
    without Unicode.

    > é is one byte in the console. How many is it in your UTF8
    > terminal?


    Oh sure - but given that there are more than 256 glyphs in common
    use in Europe alone one byte per character is inadequate. After all it may
    be an e with an accute accent in iso8859-1, but what if the reader is using
    iso8859-6 ? I'm happy to pay the bytes for unambiguous encoding.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  12. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:39:06 +1000
    Andrew Reilly wrote:

    > On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:05:02 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
    >
    > > On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:26:26 +1000
    > > Andrew Reilly wrote:
    > >
    > >> I'm curious: under what circumstances is running more than one X
    > >> server on the same box a win?

    > >
    > > Running GUI sessions for multiple users,

    >
    > Using multiple display cards, or multi-head cards and USB keyboards?


    No simply being able to ALT-Fn between multiple user environments
    (yes of course the users have to trust each other or always lock when
    leaving the keyboard). I've also used multiple X sessions to separate
    different major sessions (eg. a personal and one or more work sessions).

    > That's a neat idea, but not hugely scalable, I imagine. Tricky to
    > maintain associations between keyboards, mice and display devices?


    Actually that should be easy to do and xdm would support graphical
    logins on them, it should be a cost effective way of getting a small number
    of users on one machine. All it takes is separate config files for each X
    server each one specifying one display, keyboard and mouse.

    > > also good for playing with
    > > new window manglers.

    >
    > OK. I've stopped doing that. Part of the GNOME-induced life
    > simplification exercise :-)


    To be honest so have I - it's been several years since flwm annoyed
    me and so it has stuck - I used to go fiddling with WMs every time the one
    I was using irritated me in some way. Gnome lasted about five minutes[1]
    several years ago, presumably it has improved

    [1] It would have been less but I spent that long looking for - well,
    anything. It was profoundly underwhelming.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  13. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    In our last episode,
    <87y7h839ip.fsf@kobe.laptop>,
    the lovely and talented Giorgos Keramidas
    broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:

    > On 22 Jul 2007 06:15:06 GMT, Lars Eighner wrote:
    >>In our last episode, <87vecdm5t5.fsf@kobe.laptop>, the lovely and talented
    >>Giorgos Keramidas broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:
    >>> The fact that you do not seem to have any particularly pressing need
    >>> for UTF-8 does not instantly make it useless, so please accept the
    >>> fact that _some_ people may have a real, important _need_ for it.

    >>
    >> But I don't. So why should I have gigabytes of Locale crap on my
    >> computer and have to run in a slow, bloated, illegible GUI? Why isn't
    >> their one switch in make.conf that will build world and applications
    >> without the junk?


    > Hold on a bit there. The "locale" files are not really "gigabytes of
    > crap" now, are they? On my FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT installation, the entire
    > `/usr/share/locale' directory is a little more than 1.6 MB:


    > $ du -sk /usr/share/locale
    > 1614 /usr/share/locale
    > $


    That is only where a few constants are set. This does not account for all
    of the locale handling in the system and applications.


    --
    Lars Eighner
    Countdown: 547 days to go.
    Owing to massive spam from googlegroups, I do not see most posts from there.

  14. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    In our last episode, <20070722092737.9bfb7069.steveo@eircom.net>, the lovely
    and talented Steve O'Hara-Smith broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:

    > On 21 Jul 2007 19:02:16 GMT
    > Lars Eighner wrote:


    >> If I need iso8859-15, I could edit the nearest VGA font I had to it.
    >> Stick the name of that font in rc.conf and be off to the races.


    > Right and the day you need to have ? (euro) and (generic
    > currency symbol)


    That day will never come.

    > at the same time you're screwed, how about a ? (Mill)
    > symbol ? Go on type up a currency exchange table in text with the symbols
    > without Unicode.


    >> é is one byte in the console. How many is it in your UTF8
    >> terminal?


    > Oh sure - but given that there are more than 256 glyphs in common
    > use in Europe alone one byte per character is inadequate. After all it may
    > be an e with an accute accent in iso8859-1, but what if the reader is using
    > iso8859-6 ? I'm happy to pay the bytes for unambiguous encoding.


    Who cares what characters they use in Outer Slobovia? ISO-8859-1(5)
    will cover French, Italian, Latin, English, and Spanish at least. How many
    of the missing languages do you read or write? (Oh yeah, there don't seem
    to be freeBSD locales for Gaelic languages, anyway).

    Look, I don't care what you do with your GUI, although if you want a GUI I
    don't see why you don't use a Mac or Windoz. I just don't want to be
    stranded in an "End of Life" release when upgrading would break all my
    console applications.

    --
    Lars Eighner
    Countdown: 547 days to go.
    Owing to massive spam from googlegroups, I do not see most posts from there.

  15. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:10:07 +0000, Lars Eighner wrote:

    > I just don't want to be
    > stranded in an "End of Life" release when upgrading would break all my
    > console applications.


    Tough. Cope.

    Everyone else is using UTF. Three of the programming languages and one of
    the "text" data storage formats that I use on a regualar basis have been
    defined to use UTF for text, including source text. There is no escape.
    Octet-array "text" is "End of Life" almost by definition, and the console
    applications have evolved to deal with that reality, or are in the process
    of so evolving.

    I think that you'll find it very difficult indeed to find a workstation or
    server operating system of any sort that operates only on octet text
    formats, going forwards. Even the embedded OSes that have any exposure to
    user interfaces use UTF.

    Cheers,

    --
    Andrew


  16. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    In our last episode,
    ,
    the lovely and talented Andrew Reilly
    broadcast on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:

    > On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:10:07 +0000, Lars Eighner wrote:


    >> I just don't want to be
    >> stranded in an "End of Life" release when upgrading would break all my
    >> console applications.


    > Tough. Cope.


    > Everyone else is using UTF. Three of the programming languages and one of
    > the "text" data storage formats that I use on a regualar basis have been
    > defined to use UTF for text, including source text. There is no escape.
    > Octet-array "text" is "End of Life" almost by definition, and the console
    > applications have evolved to deal with that reality, or are in the process
    > of so evolving.


    > I think that you'll find it very difficult indeed to find a workstation or
    > server operating system of any sort that operates only on octet text
    > formats, going forwards. Even the embedded OSes that have any exposure to
    > user interfaces use UTF.


    Time to see how things are going in FreeDOS then.

    --
    Lars Eighner
    Countdown: 547 days to go.
    Owing to massive spam from googlegroups, I do not see most posts from there.

  17. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:38:44 -0500
    rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:

    > Bob Eager wrote:
    > +---------------
    > | wrote:
    > | > Many people start FreeBSD in text console mode, and then
    > | > run "startx" after logging in. These people are weird. :-)
    > |
    > | After 31 years of UNIX, it feels more comfortable!
    > +---------------
    >
    > Ditto, though I just have my ~/.login do an "exec xinit",
    > and the last line in my ~/.xinitrc runs "twm", so all I
    > have to do to log out is exit the window manager using
    > a convenient root menu line in the ~/.twmrc file:


    I achieve a similar effect by a different mechanism, I have a shell
    function that (without arguments) finds a free tty, starts an X server on it
    with startx and then logs out thus returning the text console to a login
    prompt.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  18. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 2007-07-22, Lars Eighner wrote:
    > Why isn't their one
    > switch in make.conf that will build world and applications without the junk?
    >


    Well, it is a Free Software project. Patches are welcome :-)

    --
    Piotr Smyrak

  19. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On 2007-07-22, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    >
    > There are at least 4 *different* one-byte based 'encodings' of
    > Greek text which have, in various periods, been in use in
    > Greece. None of them are fully compatible with ISO 8859-1, or
    > with each other for that matter.
    >


    Giorgos, but don't you think that now you have somehow 5 encodings?
    :-) We seem to have a similar issue here as well

    I understand all the argument behind UTF8, but it does not solve
    the issue that there are some many pieces of useful software, that
    were not UTF enabled.

    --
    Piotr Smyrak

  20. Re: Nub question: FreeBSD is graphic or text based?

    On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 05:59:41 +0000 (UTC), Piotr Smyrak wrote:
    >On 2007-07-22, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    >> There are at least 4 *different* one-byte based 'encodings' of
    >> Greek text which have, in various periods, been in use in
    >> Greece. None of them are fully compatible with ISO 8859-1, or
    >> with each other for that matter.

    >
    > Giorgos, but don't you think that now you have somehow 5
    > encodings? :-) We seem to have a similar issue here as well


    True. But there is "hope" that this new encoding scheme may turn
    out to be better, by virtue of being self-contained for
    representing both Greek *and* other languages in the same file
    (something which is nearly impossible in ISO-based encodings).

    > I understand all the argument behind UTF8, but it does not
    > solve the issue that there are some many pieces of useful
    > software, that were not UTF enabled.


    Indeed, and if you can read Greek, you can easily find a recent
    thread in one of the Greek Unix-user mailing lists where I
    defended _precisely_ this sort of thing: that support for *any*
    encoding should never be dropped lightheartedly, because it shows
    a lack of respect to the needs, to the interests and data sets of
    all the users who need the particular encoding[1].

    [1] http://lists.hellug.gr/pipermail/lin...ly/069291.html

    I generally frown the idea of dropping either UTF-8 or *any*
    other locale, because it ignores the fact that there *are* people
    who need it.

    - Giorgos


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