does freeBSD support Hammer - BSD

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  1. does freeBSD support Hammer

    Does FreeBSD have the Hammer filesystem?

    Also, do the RadeonHD drivers work on FreeBSD?

  2. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
    dh003i wrote:

    > Does FreeBSD have the Hammer filesystem?


    Nope - as yet the only OS with Hammer is DragonFlyBSD.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  3. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    dh003i wrote:
    > Also, do the RadeonHD drivers work on FreeBSD?


    Yes. It is in ports:
    http://beta.freshports.org/x11-drive...ideo-radeonhd/

    HTH
    --
    Torfinn Ingolfsen,
    Norway

  4. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Sep 4, 3:47*pm, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
    > On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
    >
    > dh003i wrote:
    > > Does FreeBSD have the Hammer filesystem?

    >
    > * * * * Nope - as yet the only OS with Hammer is DragonFlyBSD.


    Ok, so lets say that I'm using a quad-core system (AMD Phenom).
    DragonFly BSD doesn't yet run on AMD 64-bit quad-cores. Is there a way
    one could use virtualization to get access to the Hammer FS through
    Dragonfly BSD on a AMD Phenom?

  5. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Sep 4, 3:56*pm, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
    > dh003i wrote:
    > > Also, do the RadeonHD drivers work on FreeBSD?

    >
    > Yes. It is in ports:http://beta.freshports.org/x11-drive...ideo-radeonhd/
    >
    > HTH
    > --
    > Torfinn Ingolfsen,
    > Norway


    Thank you very much.

  6. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:02:17 -0700 (PDT)
    dh003i wrote:

    > On Sep 4, 3:47*pm, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
    > > On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
    > >
    > > dh003i wrote:
    > > > Does FreeBSD have the Hammer filesystem?

    > >
    > > * * * * Nope - as yet the only OS with Hammer is DragonFlyBSD.

    >
    > Ok, so lets say that I'm using a quad-core system (AMD Phenom).
    > DragonFly BSD doesn't yet run on AMD 64-bit quad-cores. Is there a way


    It'll run on them I think - treating it as four rather swift
    pentiums or thereabouts.

    > one could use virtualization to get access to the Hammer FS through
    > Dragonfly BSD on a AMD Phenom?


    You should be able to run DragonFly in a VM of some kind (qemu,
    vmware) and use NFS to get at a Hammer FS running on it.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  7. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Sep 5, 11:10*am, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
    > > Ok, so lets say that I'm using a quad-core system (AMD Phenom).
    > > DragonFly BSD doesn't yet run on AMD 64-bit quad-cores. Is there a way

    >
    > * * * * It'll run on them I think - treating it as four rather swift
    > pentiums or thereabouts.
    >
    > > one could use virtualization to get access to the Hammer FS through
    > > Dragonfly BSD on a AMD Phenom?

    >
    > * * * * You should be able to run DragonFly in a VM of some kind (qemu,
    > vmware) and use NFS to get at a Hammer FS running on it.


    Thank you for your response. Could I use Xen instead, using its
    paravirtualization? Is full virtualization necessary to run another
    OS?

    The issue is, i've read that QEMU is slow, and KQEME is medim-
    performance (from the Linux Virtualization Wiki).

  8. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    dh003i wrote:
    > Does FreeBSD have the Hammer filesystem?


    No. FreeBSD has a number of proven and well-tested filesystems though. Such
    as ZFS. As I understand it, Hammer is still very, very young and imature. I
    would not trust my data to it.

    > Also, do the RadeonHD drivers work on FreeBSD?


    Yes.

    - Philip


    --
    Philip Paeps Please don't email any replies
    philip@paeps.cx I follow the newsgroup.

    If muprhy's law can go wrong, it will.

  9. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On 7 Sep 2008 19:09:30 GMT
    Philip Paeps wrote:

    > dh003i wrote:
    > > Does FreeBSD have the Hammer filesystem?

    >
    > No. FreeBSD has a number of proven and well-tested filesystems though.
    > Such as ZFS. As I understand it, Hammer is still very, very young and
    > imature. I would not trust my data to it.


    I would second this sentiment - Hammer is indeed very young I would
    certainly not consider it as a safe place for the only copy of my data.
    Persoanlly I currently use it for one of the backup copies of my data, the
    history mechanism is very neat in that role. I look forward to the day when
    I can feel comfortable using it as a clustered replicated filesystem, but I
    don't expect to do so any time soon - I hate losing data.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  10. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:28:33 -0700 (PDT)
    dh003i wrote:

    > On Sep 5, 11:10*am, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
    > > > Ok, so lets say that I'm using a quad-core system (AMD Phenom).
    > > > DragonFly BSD doesn't yet run on AMD 64-bit quad-cores. Is there a way

    > >
    > > * * * * It'll run on them I think - treating it as four rather swift
    > > pentiums or thereabouts.
    > >
    > > > one could use virtualization to get access to the Hammer FS through
    > > > Dragonfly BSD on a AMD Phenom?

    > >
    > > * * * * You should be able to run DragonFly in a VM of some kind (qemu,
    > > vmware) and use NFS to get at a Hammer FS running on it.

    >
    > Thank you for your response. Could I use Xen instead, using its
    > paravirtualization? Is full virtualization necessary to run another
    > OS?


    For Xen there needs to be support in both host and guest OSs -
    there is no guest support for Xen in DragonFly - if you would like to add
    it I'm sure it would be welcome.

    > The issue is, i've read that QEMU is slow, and KQEME is medim-
    > performance (from the Linux Virtualization Wiki).


    Indeed however for a file server you are unlikely to be CPU bound
    so this is probably not a major problem, performance should be limited by
    the drives.

    --
    C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
    The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
    You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
    | http://www.sohara.org/

  11. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    Philip,


    On Sep 7, 3:09*pm, Philip Paeps wrote:
    > dh003i wrote:
    > > Does FreeBSD have theHammerfilesystem?

    >
    > No. *FreeBSD has a number of proven and well-tested filesystems though.*Such
    > as ZFS. *As I understand it,Hammeris still very, very young and imature.. *I
    > would not trust my data to it.


    Thanks, but the reason I shy away from ZFS on FreeBSD is because I've
    read ZFS has a lot of overhead and doesn't stack up to other FS in
    terms of performance. Also, there are a number of I think serious
    issues so-far with ZFS on FreeBSD (from the ZFS FreeBSD Wiki):

    * Currently, every machine running ZFS will need to be tuned in order
    to lessen out-of-memory kernel panics, particularly i386.
    Unfortunately, there is currently no way to completely get rid of this
    class of ZFS panics.

    * Heavy IO activity between ZFS and another file system (like rsyncing
    between ZFS and UFS or between ZFS and NFS) may result in a deadlock.
    Symptoms: processes wanting to do IO on a ZFS file system get stuck
    forever in "zfs" state (WCHAN), other file systems (e.g. UFS) are
    still working. References: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/f...ry/004391.html
    , http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/f...ry/040047.html

    * Heavy IO activity in multithreaded applications (like file system
    benchmarks) can provoke a panic. Symptoms: the kernel panics in txg_*.
    References: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/f...ch/040943.html
    # Unverified: possibility of deadlock if ZFS prefetch is active.
    Symptoms: deadlock if ZFS prefetch is not disabled
    (vfs.zfs.prefetch_disable=1). May or may not be connected with issue
    #1.

    * ZFS file systems don't start on boot in single-user mode. Symptoms:
    ZFS file systems are not started / mounted when the machine is booted
    in single-user mode. References: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/f...il/071462.html
    .. Workaround: see referenced post.

  12. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    dh003i wrote:
    > Philip,
    >
    >
    > On Sep 7, 3:09*pm, Philip Paeps wrote:
    > > dh003i wrote:
    > > > Does FreeBSD have theHammerfilesystem?

    > >
    > > No. *FreeBSD has a number of proven and well-tested filesystems though. *Such
    > > as ZFS. *As I understand it,Hammeris still very, very young and imature. *I
    > > would not trust my data to it.

    >
    > Thanks, but the reason I shy away from ZFS on FreeBSD is because I've
    > read ZFS has a lot of overhead and doesn't stack up to other FS in
    > terms of performance. Also, there are a number of I think serious


    This is not true. I have seen benchmarks showing that ZFS has rather
    better performance than traditional filesystems. But it is true it uses
    a lot of processing power and memory, which is cheap nowadays. And
    the simplicity of use and flexibility is absolutely outsatnding.


    > issues so-far with ZFS on FreeBSD (from the ZFS FreeBSD Wiki):


    Issues are fixed regularly and will be fixed, as in any other piece of
    software. There are issues fixed in UFS + Softupdates even now. ZFS root
    filesystems are certainly possible, some people use that, personnally i
    don't have this experience. But what is the problem of keeping one UFS
    partition for root and the rest of the disk under ZFS? In FreeBSD there
    is no problem whatsoever of ascribing ZFS to just one partition, this i
    have experience. Hammer is certainly a nice filesystem, but if you want
    to use it, please install DragonFlyBSD on an old supported machine,
    rather than playing absolutely stupid tricks like those mentioned.



    --

    Michel TALON


  13. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:07:38 +0000 (UTC),
    Michel Talon wrote:
    > But it is true it uses a lot of processing power and memory, which is
    > cheap nowadays.


    Some counter examples: ``netbooks''. soekris and pcengines boards, other
    embedded boards, like ``home router'' things.

    Yes, processing power and memory both are cheaper than they once were,
    but that isn't quite the same as ``ubiqutous'' or ``free''. IE, you can't
    assume everyone does automatically want to spend those cycles and that
    storage on a filesystem, whatever the rewards.


    I remind you that you've on more than one occasion argued for certain
    use models that should, in your opinion, receive better support from
    FreeBSD. You of all people should understand that it is not wise to
    assume that everyone likes your models or that there are no others.

    There are still very good reasons not to want zfs, and by its design,
    those aren't going to go away any time soon.


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  14. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    jpd wrote:
    > On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:07:38 +0000 (UTC),
    > Michel Talon wrote:
    >
    > There are still very good reasons not to want zfs, and by its design,
    > those aren't going to go away any time soon.
    >


    Of course, you are right, but i was responding in the context of the
    original poster, who was equipped with a quad-core machine, etc.
    Personnally i have tested ZFS on an old P4 machine, with "just" 1Gb
    memory (it eats half of it!) to host a couple of jails, and i must say
    it works very well here. From reading the DragonFly lists, i hear that
    Hammer requires very big disks, because it makes very liberal use of
    disk space for journalling, so it is not anyways a cheap solution.
    Clearly people who have small machines can remain with UFS. On small
    disks, snapshot creation time is not catastrophic. The claimed advantage
    of ZFS and Hammer is that snapshot creation time is very fast, so you
    can easily keep state of the filesystem at various dates, and thus get
    cheap "undelete" and accurate backups. Moreover ZFS offers volume
    management and software raid in an extremely easy and transparent way.
    The price to be paid here being memory and processor usage.
    Hammer is a first step in Matt's Dillon program of a cluster operating
    system, i think it is better to experiment it in the context of its
    native OS.


    >


    --

    Michel TALON


  15. Re: does freeBSD support Hammer

    On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 09:53:09 +0000 (UTC),
    Michel Talon wrote:
    > jpd wrote:
    >> There are still very good reasons not to want zfs, and by its design,
    >> those aren't going to go away any time soon.

    >
    > Of course, you are right, but i was responding in the context of the
    > original poster, who was equipped with a quad-core machine, etc.


    In that case, it indeed seems justifyable (though pedantically, it is
    still not automatically the case).


    > Hammer is a first step in Matt's Dillon program of a cluster operating
    > system, i think it is better to experiment it in the context of its
    > native OS.


    I don't disagree here, especially for the time being. :-)


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

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