gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD - BSD

This is a discussion on gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD - BSD ; Begin On 28 Jun 2008 23:15:29 GMT, Paco wrote: > jpd wrote: >>>>> > I don't understand where the "mid-release" comes from. Please >>>>> > remember that the FreeBSD ports tree is not branched. >>>>> That is a policy failure. ...

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Thread: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

  1. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    Begin <4866c611$0$17160$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
    On 28 Jun 2008 23:15:29 GMT, Paco wrote:
    > jpd wrote:
    >>>>> > I don't understand where the "mid-release" comes from. Please
    >>>>> > remember that the FreeBSD ports tree is not branched.
    >>>>> That is a policy failure.
    >>>>No. It is a feature. If you don't like this feature, you can simply
    >>>>not update your ports tree.
    >>>
    >>> I couldn't have said it better if, well, if I was a RedHat plant being
    >>> paid to obfuscate criticism of serious flaws in a competing OS.

    >>
    >>This sort of thing is why I stopped bothering to respond to you, or
    >>in most cases, read your blatherings. We can do without the trolling.

    >
    > You might find it easier jpd, by cutting down the time spent calling
    > those you disagree with trolls. In this thread alone name calling
    > accounts for over 50% of your contribution.


    Har har. And you weren't? The previous time you pulled the exact same
    trick. You run out of arguments, start calling people shills, and when
    told that's no way to keep a discussion open and interesting, start
    trying to accuse the person who just told you off of the exact same
    things, except in a very special paco sauce.

    I'm willing to accept that this is just that you are running into your
    own limits here, but then it's time for you to accept that you were Just
    Plain Wrong and move on to more productive things. Like, oh, trying to
    be part of the solution instead of insisting on assigning blame.

    We don't play the blame game here.

    Well, most of us anyway. The thing is, we'd rather have a reasonably
    working system than a lot of blame and no system. So bitching that it
    doesn't work easily means you get handed the job of coming up with at
    least a proposal or a design if not working code that does it better.

    You have been invited to do so half a dozen times or so in this thread,
    by various people. Pray tell, has your contribution to this very same
    thread included at least 50% of constructive design discussion?


    > If you really do think the fact that FreeBSD ports maintainers are
    > volunteers somehow makes them off-limits for to criticism, no matter how
    > extensive the damage caused by their mistakes (from lack of understanding
    > of release management, lack of training, inexperience, or whatever)


    You're mixing up a few things here, or rather, who said what. That and
    forgetting that you can't threaten to fire volunteers. In fact, you're
    even forgetting you're a complete outsider to the organisation and
    nowhere near the people making policy. You do not have that say.

    Neither do I, but contrary to you, I don't claim I do. I do know and so
    I explained that this organisation, or rather, community, has a habit of
    simply farting in the general direction of anyone who tries to pull fast
    ones like you have tried to, and tried it rather ineptly at that.

    You've been repeatedly informed of this and that you need to do better
    to be taken seriously, yet you insist. Well, we'll just insist on not
    taking you seriously. In this, previous attempts clearly show that you
    have a better chance of getting the phone company to care.


    > then I'd guess that you don't have any children. If you did you would
    > know that both carrots and sticks are required, and expected, to properly
    > guide newbies.


    There's always a few newbies that think their opinion trumps everything,
    including the well-ment advice from people who clearly do know better.


    >>If you really do know it all so much better, then start your own ports
    >>replacement for FreeBSD and show us. Finding people who'll help you
    >>with it is permitted, of course. I think you can recruit one or two
    >>loudmouths right here. Come back when you're done. Feel free to gloat.

    >
    > What exactly you expect to accomplish by such name calling?


    Instead of what you claim, I told you to not try and call Philip names,
    as they're transparant attempts to troll for reactions (shortened to
    simply ``trolling'' in the vernacular, in case you weren't aware).

    In the above paragraph I invited you to excercise your wisdom and
    knowledge you seem to feel vastly superior to that possessed by the
    entirety of the FreeBSD project, and fix the problems in a system
    you blame on its creators' incompetence. In doing so, I apparently
    ``accomplished'' eliciting a reaction from you wherein you show yourself
    functionally illiterate.


    Well, it's all in a day's work, I guess. I must admit that I feel it
    is a bit of a disappointment, altough not entirely unexpected, as it
    seems to dash all hopes of a better world, or at least a better ports
    collection replacement. Still, can't have everything, eh.


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  2. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    On 06/29/2008 04:45 AM, Paco wrote:
    > jpd wrote:
    >>>>>> I don't understand where the "mid-release" comes from. Please
    >>>>>> remember that the FreeBSD ports tree is not branched.
    >>>>> That is a policy failure.
    >>>> No. It is a feature. If you don't like this feature, you can simply
    >>>> not update your ports tree.
    >>> I couldn't have said it better if, well, if I was a RedHat plant being
    >>> paid to obfuscate criticism of serious flaws in a competing OS.

    >> This sort of thing is why I stopped bothering to respond to you, or
    >> in most cases, read your blatherings. We can do without the trolling.

    >
    > You might find it easier jpd, by cutting down the time spent calling
    > those you disagree with trolls. In this thread alone name calling
    > accounts for over 50% of your contribution.
    >
    > If you really do think the fact that FreeBSD ports maintainers are
    > volunteers somehow makes them off-limits for to criticism, no matter how
    > extensive the damage caused by their mistakes (from lack of understanding
    > of release management, lack of training, inexperience, or whatever)
    > then I'd guess that you don't have any children. If you did you would
    > know that both carrots and sticks are required, and expected, to properly
    > guide newbies.
    >
    >> If you really do know it all so much better, then start your own ports
    >> replacement for FreeBSD and show us. Finding people who'll help you
    >> with it is permitted, of course. I think you can recruit one or two
    >> loudmouths right here. Come back when you're done. Feel free to gloat.

    >
    > What exactly you expect to accomplish by such name calling?


    Paco:
    Almost all the anonymous people like jpd, shall/can never bring any name
    for the FreeBSD and, or any such systems/project. IMHO, we either should
    ignore these kinds of planted trolls or strongly condemn them once and
    for all.

    I've never posted except with my real name and email address, and that
    goes back 12 years. There's always been a certain level of anonymity
    since people can choose a username that doens't match their real name,
    and of course there was 'anon.penet.fi' where people could post with a
    certain level of anonymity. But I chose not to. There are things that
    I may hesitate to post about, but that's a personal thing, and
    ultimately those things I don't post and, or reply about are by
    definition less important than the things I do post about. But I
    decided that anonymity removes power and authenticity from posts,
    because it's really easy to say something when you can't be accountable.

    jpd:
    You do realize Nelson Mandela was in jail for decades for what amounts
    to terrorist acts. If you want a better signpost, check to see if Philip
    Berrigan is on the list, someone who did time for civil disobedience but
    always took the responsibility, waiting to be arrested after the deed.
    That's a far better model for changing society than hiding behind
    anonymity out of fear.

    --
    Dr Balwinder S "bsd" Dheeman Registered Linux User: #229709
    Anu'z Linux@HOME (Unix Shoppe) Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192
    Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India Gentoo, Fedora, Debian/FreeBSD/XP
    Home: http://cto.homelinux.net/~bsd/ Visit: http://counter.li.org/

  3. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:50:26 +0530, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:
    > On 06/29/2008 04:45 AM, Paco wrote:
    >> jpd wrote:
    >>>>>>> I don't understand where the "mid-release" comes from. Please
    >>>>>>> remember that the FreeBSD ports tree is not branched.
    >>>>>> That is a policy failure.
    >>>>> No. It is a feature. If you don't like this feature, you can simply
    >>>>> not update your ports tree.
    >>>> I couldn't have said it better if, well, if I was a RedHat plant being
    >>>> paid to obfuscate criticism of serious flaws in a competing OS.
    >>> This sort of thing is why I stopped bothering to respond to you, or
    >>> in most cases, read your blatherings. We can do without the trolling.

    >>
    >> You might find it easier jpd, by cutting down the time spent calling
    >> those you disagree with trolls. In this thread alone name calling
    >> accounts for over 50% of your contribution.
    >>
    >> If you really do think the fact that FreeBSD ports maintainers are
    >> volunteers somehow makes them off-limits for to criticism, no matter how
    >> extensive the damage caused by their mistakes (from lack of understanding
    >> of release management, lack of training, inexperience, or whatever)
    >> then I'd guess that you don't have any children. If you did you would
    >> know that both carrots and sticks are required, and expected, to properly
    >> guide newbies.
    >>
    >>> If you really do know it all so much better, then start your own ports
    >>> replacement for FreeBSD and show us. Finding people who'll help you
    >>> with it is permitted, of course. I think you can recruit one or two
    >>> loudmouths right here. Come back when you're done. Feel free to gloat.

    >>
    >> What exactly you expect to accomplish by such name calling?

    >
    > Paco:
    > Almost all the anonymous people like jpd, shall/can never bring any
    > name for the FreeBSD and, or any such systems/project. IMHO, we either
    > should ignore these kinds of planted trolls or strongly condemn them
    > once and for all.


    There have been replies from eponymous members of the _current_ FreeBSD
    team too. Two of the replies I saw were from:

    Thierry Thomas in message
    Philip Paeps in message

    Thierry is a ports-committer, thus a member of the Ports team, and
    Philip is an src-committer. Yours truly is a doc-committer and has been
    watching this thread unfold in amazed silence.

    Do we _really_ have to drag the thread low enough where "ad hominem"
    attacks are all that is left?

    > jpd:
    > You do realize Nelson Mandela was in jail for decades for what amounts
    > to terrorist acts. If you want a better signpost, check to see if
    > Philip Berrigan is on the list, someone who did time for civil
    > disobedience but always took the responsibility, waiting to be
    > arrested after the deed. That's a far better model for changing
    > society than hiding behind anonymity out of fear.


    Being anonymous doesn't make him also "wrong" when he says that the best
    way of fixing something is actually jumping in and writing the code to
    fix it.


  4. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    On 28 Jun 2008 22:50:51 +0200,
    Wolfgang Schelongowski wrote:
    > jpd writes:
    >
    >>Then you need to systematize and automatize your systems management.
    >>There are various approaches, depending on your needs. For one example
    >>you could look at how eg. dutch isp xs4all does this (on FreeBSD).

    >
    > URLs, please? Or at least what to google for?


    There is a SANE paper[1] on this particular thing, and ISTR there was
    a site about it too. Searching for the more hardware-related PXE boot
    options also gives numerous interesting links.

    Then there are the bits on FreeBSD.org about building your own release.
    You can of course maintain a set of built packages tailored for your
    shop's needs. Automating base rollout on a standard layout I did with a
    few scripts on a machine that supported hot-swapping of disks. You can
    do it with PXE as above too, or you could build your own CD with base
    and collected packages, keep those on an nfs mount, etc.

    Other interesting approaches to part of the problems include cfengine
    and arusha (ark)[2] though those are not FreeBSD specific. There may be
    more, I've not kept up due to circumstances.


    [1] _Installing and maintaining clusters of UNIX servers using PXE and rsync_
    http://www.nluug.nl/events/sane2002/papers/SANE.ps
    [2] http://ark.sourceforge.net/

    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  5. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    On 06/29/2008 01:08 PM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:50:26 +0530, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:
    >> On 06/29/2008 04:45 AM, Paco wrote:
    >>> jpd wrote:
    >>>>>>>> I don't understand where the "mid-release" comes from. Please
    >>>>>>>> remember that the FreeBSD ports tree is not branched.
    >>>>>>> That is a policy failure.
    >>>>>> No. It is a feature. If you don't like this feature, you can simply
    >>>>>> not update your ports tree.
    >>>>> I couldn't have said it better if, well, if I was a RedHat plant being
    >>>>> paid to obfuscate criticism of serious flaws in a competing OS.
    >>>> This sort of thing is why I stopped bothering to respond to you, or
    >>>> in most cases, read your blatherings. We can do without the trolling.
    >>> You might find it easier jpd, by cutting down the time spent calling
    >>> those you disagree with trolls. In this thread alone name calling
    >>> accounts for over 50% of your contribution.
    >>>
    >>> If you really do think the fact that FreeBSD ports maintainers are
    >>> volunteers somehow makes them off-limits for to criticism, no matter how
    >>> extensive the damage caused by their mistakes (from lack of understanding
    >>> of release management, lack of training, inexperience, or whatever)
    >>> then I'd guess that you don't have any children. If you did you would
    >>> know that both carrots and sticks are required, and expected, to properly
    >>> guide newbies.
    >>>
    >>>> If you really do know it all so much better, then start your own ports
    >>>> replacement for FreeBSD and show us. Finding people who'll help you
    >>>> with it is permitted, of course. I think you can recruit one or two
    >>>> loudmouths right here. Come back when you're done. Feel free to gloat.
    >>> What exactly you expect to accomplish by such name calling?

    >> Paco:
    >> Almost all the anonymous people like jpd, shall/can never bring any
    >> name for the FreeBSD and, or any such systems/project. IMHO, we either
    >> should ignore these kinds of planted trolls or strongly condemn them
    >> once and for all.

    >
    > There have been replies from eponymous members of the _current_ FreeBSD
    > team too. Two of the replies I saw were from:
    >
    > Thierry Thomas in message
    > Philip Paeps in message
    >
    > Thierry is a ports-committer, thus a member of the Ports team, and
    > Philip is an src-committer. Yours truly is a doc-committer and has been
    > watching this thread unfold in amazed silence.
    >
    > Do we _really_ have to drag the thread low enough where "ad hominem"
    > attacks are all that is left?


    No, this has never been my intension.

    FYKI, I after discovering flaws in the FreeBSD ports build framework
    and, or systems have also posted a few alternative ideas for solving the
    problem, here on this thread itself.

    BTW, either you deliberately, have snipped/ignored an important portion,
    "There are things that I may hesitate to post and, or reply about, but
    that's a personal thing, and ultimately those things I don't post and,
    or reply about are by definition less important than the things I do
    post about." or you totally failed to grasp what I was trying to say.

    >> jpd:
    >> You do realize Nelson Mandela was in jail for decades for what amounts
    >> to terrorist acts. If you want a better signpost, check to see if
    >> Philip Berrigan is on the list, someone who did time for civil
    >> disobedience but always took the responsibility, waiting to be
    >> arrested after the deed. That's a far better model for changing
    >> society than hiding behind anonymity out of fear.

    >
    > Being anonymous doesn't make him also "wrong" when he says that the best
    > way of fixing something is actually jumping in and writing the code to
    > fix it.


    I never object jpd and, or any other anonymous posters, if I agree with
    them.

    --
    Dr Balwinder S "bsd" Dheeman Registered Linux User: #229709
    Anu'z Linux@HOME (Unix Shoppe) Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192
    Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India Gentoo, Fedora, Debian/FreeBSD/XP
    Home: http://cto.homelinux.net/~bsd/ Visit: http://counter.li.org/

  6. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:13:02 +0530, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote:
    >On 06/29/2008 01:08 PM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
    >> There have been replies from eponymous members of the _current_ FreeBSD
    >> team too. Two of the replies I saw were from:
    >>
    >> Thierry Thomas in message
    >> Philip Paeps in message
    >>
    >> Thierry is a ports-committer, thus a member of the Ports team, and
    >> Philip is an src-committer. Yours truly is a doc-committer and has been
    >> watching this thread unfold in amazed silence.
    >>
    >> Do we _really_ have to drag the thread low enough where "ad hominem"
    >> attacks are all that is left?

    >
    > No, this has never been my intension.


    That's a bit reassuring

    > FYKI, I after discovering flaws in the FreeBSD ports build framework
    > and, or systems have also posted a few alternative ideas for solving
    > the problem, here on this thread itself.


    I seem to have missed the suggestions. It took me a while to go through
    all the posts in the thread, so this is quite probably just me not paying
    enough attention to all the details of some posts.

    You do know there is a discussion list about improvements to Ports, the
    mailing list at , right? Maybe you should bring
    these ideas about improvement to the list. At least then you stand a fair
    chance of actually reaching the *Ports* *team* itself.


  7. Re: gettext/GPLv4 virus infects FreeBSD

    On 2008-06-11, Michel Talon wrote:
    >> >>> This is the case every time gettext updates. It's nothing new. The
    >> >>> problem is so many things pulling in gettext. An even more real
    >> >>> problem is things pulling in gettext surreptitiously just because
    >> >>> it's on the system. I ranted about this on my blog:
    >> >>
    >> >> Yes, I remember funny upgrade of libtool or perl too.
    >> >
    >> > You're sure about the libtool part?

    >>
    >> Yes. Note that the big catch was not libtool, but changed naming of ports.
    >> E.g. gtk12 changed into gtk-1.2

    >
    > When i wrote my paper on the FreeBSD ports system, the constant mania of
    > changing the names of ports seemd to me to be the biggest gripe against
    > the system. At least this is the sort of thing which brings absolutely
    > nothing positive (except comforting the ego of some bikeshed painters)
    > and causes a lot of trouble for ports management.


    The big problem for me was that this didn't happen along some major version
    line, without some form of grace (like having a bunch of symlinks for the
    duration of that major version cycle)

    IOW it could break ports (and binaries) over point releases.

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